The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[Ted]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I don't know about this interpretation. Definition of "willing"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/willing

When somebody says "I am willing to die for my country" that doesn't mean they want to, but that they are prepared to, or are able to bring themselves to do it. I think too much is being read into the wording.

Bottom Line: Hubbard was not to be trusted. He used words to his advantage, not necessarily to the other fellow's, although his flowery language led me and others to believe he was "for" us. If you were simply "willing" but get the stats up, your ass would be grass and you would be assigned conditions or worse if they did not actually go up.

If a being wishes to actually communicate it/he/she has the responsibility to make certain the communication is actually understood on both the giving and receiving end. Hubbard gave some attention to this detail, but not always, particularly when he was on a roll while lecturing.

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Two Rules for happy Living:

1. Be willing to experience anything.
2. Cause only those things others can experinece easily.

The rules are perfectly good - nothing wrong there. Unfortunately he himself could not live by either of them while being very insistent that others do so in their relationship with him.

Really excellent point!!! Perhaps OT abilities.

May I quote you elsewhere?

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

That was part of his games-condition. Obsessive have for self and can't have run on others. One of these days I will come up to laughter over sec checking and O/W write-ups now knowing that LRH was, himself, a pathological liar. Again, that's the games-condition.

I came up to laughter on that some time ago.

My 1991 CCRD [ re doubts on FPRD] had me persuade the C/S at St Hill I was natural clear after a denial of that from her.

Then an A-J check after being an old timer and former E/O held from above!

Then a PDH check re visiting a child psychologist aged 3 with my mom. Previously " handled" but no charge.

Was told I could have had PDH and had no recall, after my objection!

However my wins on a self elected FPRD were so brilliant that even with such crap going on I was missing sessions because of being iether ext of persistant F/N.

Laughed and left.

Anyway Hubbard talked about rising above the bank in KSW 1.

Your post prompts me to think he was on to something there.

Sec checking and O/W write ups are valid tech. With all his
case problems or possible problems he seemed to have got that tech right. The admin aspects of this are another story.

Its my opinion that his tech research [ including plagiarism]
was a valid usefull tech which he achieved DESPITE his bank.

Other stuff is another story.

 

[JackStraw]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I am pretty much wordless also.

Time marches on.

Me, too, Ed. Me too.

Jack

 

[JackStraw]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Two Rules for happy Living:

1. Be willing to experience anything.
2. Cause only those things others can experinece easily.

The rules are perfectly good - nothing wrong there. Unfortunately he himself could not live by either of them while being very insistent that others do so in their relationship with him.

At the Palo Alto Mission in the late '70s and early '80s we had a third rule for happy living:

3. If you cant confront it, deep-six it!

Jack

 

[Vinaire]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Bottom line with Hubbard seems to be that he wanted to understand himself through others.

And he couldn't even after evaluating many thousands of cases.

.

 

[Ted]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I came up to laughter on that some time ago.

My 1991 CCRD [ re doubts on FPRD] had me persuade the C/S at St Hill I was natural clear after a denial of that from her.

Then an A-J check after being an old timer and former E/O held from above!

Then a PDH check re visiting a child psychologist aged 3 with my mom. Previously " handled" but no charge.

Was told I could have had PDH and had no recall, after my objection!

However my wins on a self elected FPRD were so brilliant that even with such crap going on I was missing sessions because of being iether ext of persistant F/N.

Laughed and left.

Anyway Hubbard talked about rising above the bank in KSW 1.

Your post prompts me to think he was on to something there.

Sec checking and O/W write ups are valid tech. With all his
case problems or possible problems he seemed to have got that tech right. The admin aspects of this are another story.

Its my opinion that his tech research [ including plagiarism]
was a valid usefull tech which he achieved DESPITE his bank.

Other stuff is another story.

He was talking about being an observant, thinking, responsive, creative individual and not a dull, unthinking, unresponsive member of the collective.

Scientology used judiciously and lightly as a homeopath uses his concoctions works very well. Scientology used as full-bore disease eradication works pretty good for some, and not at all for others, much like radiation and chemo works on cancer.

I still do not like to be lied to, and I don't like attempts at manipulation. I am not up to laughter on those matters when it comes to Hubbard. I was actually serious about the subject for the longest time. I was also in a fog.

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

He was talking about being an observant, thinking, responsive, creative individual and not a dull, unthinking, unresponsive member of the collective.

Scientology used judiciously and lightly as a homeopath uses his concoctions works very well. Scientology used as full-bore disease eradication works pretty good for some, and not at all for others, much like radiation and chemo works on cancer.

I still do not like to be lied to, and I don't like attempts at manipulation. I am not up to laughter on those matters when it comes to Hubbard. I was actually serious about the subject for the longest time. I was also in a fog.

This is probably the best place to de construct scn tech.

Look for whats good and whats not.

You want to start this?

 

[Jachs]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Bottom Line: Hubbard was not to be trusted. He used words to his advantage, not necessarily to the other fellow's, although his flowery language led me and others to believe he was "for" us. If you were simply "willing" but get the stats up, your ass would be grass and you would be assigned conditions or worse if they did not actually go up.

If a being wishes to actually communicate it/he/she has the responsibility to make certain the communication is actually understood on both the giving and receiving end. Hubbard gave some attention to this detail, but not always, particularly when he was on a roll while lecturing.

On Hubbards Flowery language, (Buddha pep talk) , in looking through the tech Volumes, (not the lectures) i find an assumption /belief throughout hes for us too, putting the writings into groups, of technical critical, paranoid, empowering-(Buddha/flowery) there were very few empowering , What is greatness?, you can be right, mans search for his soul, is it possible to be happy, the hope of man, the open channel, honest people have rights too, how help became betrayal, personal integrity, clean hands make a happy life, two rules for happy living, there arent oo many more,

In Dianetics he forwarded the assumption its safe , theres no danger, your free, He later recanted on the 'victim' case, onwards from Dianetics he sprinkled in very few feel good fuzzy writings at a rate of 60 technical to 1 flowery fuzzy , then now were together lets solve the problem.. once the dianetics honeymoon was over, he rarely flowed the harmonic of love.

*In reviewing tech vols 1950-1970 (2/3rds), many buddha pep talk writings were allocated into book chapters.

 

[lkwdblds]

Nice and a Bit Different and Refreshing Point of View!

Bottom line with Hubbard seems to be that he wanted to understand himself through others.

And he couldn't even after evaluating many thousands of cases.

.

I like this post Vin! To me, It is a new look and quite refreshing.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Thanks Roger!

This quote of LRH's that Lakey and Ted refer to:


Yes . . . note he uses the words/phrases "willing to" and "want to" . . .

This of course speaks to his evil and insanity.

Had he been sane he would have expressed the sentiment in the terms that one has to be able to . . . but not choose to.

It is interesting to observe the specificity of his word choice and slip up of revealing his true self here.

RogerB

Thanks, Roger, I think you have given a short but very inciteful analysis of the Hubbard quote which I posted. You capture the heart of what Hubbard's words mean and summarize your conclusion with your comments about his sanity in just a few key words.
Lakey

P.S. - I also enjoyed all the follow up posts from Ted, Terril, Mark Baker, Vinaire, Lesolee and Jacks. Also I liked Leon's post.
Lakey

 

[Leon]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

There's another aspect to old Hubs that may be the origin of all this for him. He often said "What is true for you is true for you" and "don't let anothwer dissuade you from your own truths". Not actual quotes, but that sort of thing.

It is a very short step from there to the idea that if he is able to convince you of the truth of something and you then accept it as true, then he has not lied to you at all - he's told you the truth.

Well hasn't he? Yes he has. In his own way of thinking.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

There's another aspect to old Hubs that may be the origin of all this for him. He often said "What is true for you is true for you" and "don't let anothwer dissuade you from your own truths". Not actual quotes, but that sort of thing.

It is a very short step from there to the idea that if he is able to convince you of the truth of something and you then accept it as true, then he has not lied to you at all - he's told you the truth.

Well hasn't he? Yes he has. In his own way of thinking.

Interesting proposition Leon. I don't agree with you 100%. For example, let us say that I declare that all your money, including your savings and future earnings are rightfully mine and belong to me. Let us say further that I am able to get you to agree that my assertion is "the truth". I don't see that I have cancelled out or mitigated the damages which I am doing to you by usurping your money.

As you go through life, you are going to be suffering slings and arrows due to not being in possession of your money, even if you are made to believe that giving me your money is the proper and true thing to do.

For a guru such as Hubbard stated he was, he should be enabling his followers to recognize amd doscerm Universal truths and discard falsely asserted truths. If he can convince people to accept false statements as being true, he is engaging in criminal activity.

Your claim that he is not lying as long as he convinces someone that something is true for them, is sort of a conundrum. Perhaps, in a certain literal sense of the word, he is then not telling a lie but it is still insane to trick another being in this manner. After all, you are tricking someone into a false belief just to avoid being labled as a liar, while at the same time the person is still going suffer damages following your advice.
Lakey

 

[Ted]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This is probably the best place to de construct scn tech.

Look for whats good and whats not.

You want to start this?

Er, ah...

Been doing that on the internet for YEARS!

But don't look for a Summary Report as it might never come.

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

That depends very much on what the individual considers to be at stake. Most individuals are quite willing to take arms and serve in the armed forces of their nation which may well involve willfully causing pain, hurt & anguish to others. Similarly, lying, cheating, & stealing in a 'good cause' is often deemed an admirable quality. [Note that willing deceit was a vital aspect of the recent foray by ST 6 into the heart of pakistan in pursuit of bin Laden.]

Those few individuals who are completely opposed to any such conduct often wind up living lives as pacifist vegan monastics, there being few other career paths where such attitudes are even remotely tolerated by society. Even then they are oft regarded as rather unusal by their colleagues.


Mark A. Baker

Well, I would say one's use of words and their comprehension is very much dependent on and determined by one's position on the "Tone Scale" or Levels of Existence.

Some folks are very much into fighting and punishment . . . hell we see wonderful examples of that on TV with this new sport, what's it called? "extreme combat"? or something . . . it's an anything goes kind of beat up on each other.

It passes as being sane but hell, if all folks lived life that way, what a stupid bloody mess things would be.

But in the example of war you use, I would say many individuals are rather "compelled" to have to inflict pain/death on another . . . it is rather less of a "willing choice," more of default and unwilling choice needed to defend self.

As an example: Australia didn't choose to go to war against the Germans or Japanese in 1939-'45, but were compelled to react and make the choice between annihilation of self or that of their assailant.

This of course violates a basic definition and concept of "willingness"

1. Disposed or inclined; prepared
4. Of or relating to exercise of the will; volitional.

It sure as hell violates the notion of volition.

On the other hand, and the point I raised regarding Hubbard's expressed view and of what he was putting out as technical truth . . . the notion of being disposed or inclined toward or exercising one's volition to wantonly cause destruction is about as sane as Adolph Hitler's inclination and exercise of free will to make war and destroy.

So we do have the both positive and negative expressions and applications of "will," "willingness" or volition.

There is the wanton expression of it . . . . Hubbard's and Hitler's examples; and there is the rational, sane an uplifting version of it . . . which, it seems, not enough appreciate or comprehend.

Hubbard's examples of throwing old ladies who can't swim overboard (Julia Salmen) or locking young children in anchor chain lockers is not sane.

Rog

 

[Jachs]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Interesting proposition Leon. I don't agree with you 100%. For example, let us say that I declare that all your money, including your savings and future earnings are rightfully mine and belong to me. Let us say further that I am able to get you to agree that my assertion is "the truth". I don't see that I have cancelled out or mitigated the damages which I am doing to you by usurping your money.

As you go through life, you are going to be suffering slings and arrows due to not being in possession of your money, even if you are made to believe that giving me your money is the proper and true thing to do.

For a guru such as Hubbard stated he was, he should be enabling his followers to recognize amd doscerm Universal truths and discard falsely asserted truths. If he can convince people to accept false statements as being true, he is engaging in criminal activity.

Your claim that he is not lying as long as he convinces someone that something is true for them, is sort of a conundrum. Perhaps, in a certain literal sense of the word, he is then not telling a lie but it is still insane to trick another being in this manner. After all, you are tricking someone into a false belief just to avoid being labled as a liar, while at the same time the person is still going suffer damages following your advice.
Lakey

LRon only said "What is true for you ,is true for you", once or twice, after that it was geared with word clearing tech, if your not realising its truth either MUs exist or tech isnt "getting in " due to the barrier to truth out-ethics. Are we understood, or misunderstood. for a problem to be a problem it must contain a lie, Your the problem, im only telling it the way it is.
LRon altered-ised the concept probably unknowingly of 'whats true for you' which he defined as lying, by exercising his rightness and slowly reducing the ability to freely decide whats true for you, have you got it, Supervisor instructions are if the sluggards are not getting it, roll up your sleeves and turn them inside out. I think LRon probably Justified it to himself that he had given an option, later he just sang they are free to fantasize for not believing him while he sat counting his money and doing his drugs. He was very convincing many times though like with abreaction.

 

[Leon]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey old chap - your mind is just not twisted enough to understand Hubbard at all. You're far too A to B, as the saying goes. Not devious enough. Your need the mind of a criminal lawyer, or a politician or a pope or someone like that, the mind of a paranoid Machiavellian con-man. THEN you may begin to understand!

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

At the Palo Alto Mission in the late '70s and early '80s we had a third rule for happy living:

3. If you cant confront it, deep-six it!

Jack

At Hamilton and Middlefield before Phil left and Sarge and Gerry took over?

 

[thetanic]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

went to a memorial for our oldest grand daughter yesterday. She had finished nursing school in June. Was coming home with her boy friend on their motorcycle, and a drunk driver killed them both.

OMG, I'm so sorry. {hugs}

 

[Hatshepsut]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

First click on the link.

http://www.selfcontrolfreak.com/slaan.html

Now try to touch his nose with your cursor

uh boy.