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FoTi

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Both barrels. No holding back. :thumbsup:

I second the motion. FoTi really told it like it is. No punches were pulled and her post is right on the money!!

Lakey

:bow:

I think I finally got my head on straight. :eyeroll:

It wouldn't have happened without the help from a lot of people on this board and Emma being so gracious, to put this board here for all of us to share our experiences with one another and the rest of the world. :thankyou: to Emma and all the rest of you who have helped out by adding your pieces to the puzzle.

Took me over 6 years to put all the pieces together, get out of the confusion and figure it all out. It finally all came together for me. I'm clear on it now.

This is my success story.

Can I have my cert now, please? :biggrin:
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

:bow:

I think I finally got my head on straight. :eyeroll:

It wouldn't have happened without the help from a lot of people on this board and Emma being so gracious, to put this board here for all of us to share our experiences with one another and the rest of the world. :thankyou: to Emma and all the rest of you who have helped out by adding your pieces to the puzzle.

Took me over 6 years to put all the pieces together, get out of the confusion and figure it all out. It finally all came together for me. I'm clear on it now.

This is my success story.

Can I have my cert now, please? :biggrin:

It has taken me 35 years, and I'm still not there.
 
hotel smarts

our children spend lots of time traveling and spending nights in hotels. This is a list of tips, mainly about avoiding bedbugs (the latest travel nightmare)




Head straight for the bathroom
Before you check out your hotel room's minibar or oceanfront view, give it a thorough bedbug inspection—and until you've done that, stash your luggage in the loo. 

"Bedbugs are least likely to be found in the bathroom," says Missy Henriksen, vice president of public affairs for the National Pest Management Association. "They don't like the tile floors and there aren't as many hiding places. They like to be closer to where people may be sleeping."

Inspect the bed
Here's how to check for a bedbug infestation: Pull back the linens, and check all the way around and under the mattress and behind the headboard. 

Look for blood stains or small black dots that look like mold or ground pepper, says Christine Johnson, PhD, a behavioral ecologist in the American Museum of Natural History's Division of Invertebrate Zoology, in New York City. Check for the critters too. Bedbugs are about the size and shape of an apple seed, and you may find them hiding in corners or seams of the bedding. 

If you see any suspicious signs, alert the hotel staff immediately.

Check the room
Next, broaden your bedbug search to the area immediately surrounding the bed: behind picture frames, under the telephone and alarm clock, and even in books, says Johnson. 

Studies have shown that most bedbugs are found in or within 15 feet of a bed, but some may still be further away. Check in the cushions and seams of any couches or soft chairs, and in the closet before putting your clothes away.

Keep luggage off the ground
Leaving suitcases and bags on the floor—or on a second spare bed—may be one way to bring home an unwanted souvenir, says Henriksen. 

"Bedbugs can travel (from) room to room, so even if initially you don't have them, they could be in the room next to yours and they may come looking for meal sources," she says. 

For the duration of your trip, keep your bags on the desktop, on top of the dresser, or on a luggage rack in the room. (Don't leave clothing lying out, either!)

Wrap suitcases in plastic
For extra protection, keep your suitcase encased in plastic during your trip, says Henriksen. Storage and luggage retailers also sell zip-up bags specifically for this purpose. 

"I've even seen people traveling with garbage bags wrapped around their suitcases," Henriksen says. 

This precaution can protect your belongings not only in your hotel room, but also in transit; bedbugs can also hide in airplanes, trains, and taxis.

Teach kids hotel protocol
Tell your children why you're inspecting the hotel room and what you're looking for. "We teach kids our concerns about other insects, like bees and mosquitoes; bedbugs should be on that list as well," says Henriksen. 

Also watch for traces of white powder, says Johnson; it could be a pesticide used to treat a previous problem. 

"Insecticides aren't good for anyone, especially young children, and you might want to ask for another room or switch hotels if you think you're being exposed."

Move two floors away
Any suspicious marking or evidence of bugs should be enough to warrant a new room, and when it comes to a bedbug scare, hotel staff should be more than willing to oblige. 

Request that your new room be at least two floors away from the initial room, says Henriksen, since chances are good that the bugs may spread via the wallboards or electrical sockets.

Speak up
If you don't like to make waves, it may be tempting to stick with the room you've got, despite a little dirt on the mattress. 

But there are potential consequences. Bedbugs, unlike mosquitoes and ticks, do not actively transmit diseases, but a 2011 Canadian study found that they could carry germs from one person to another—including the antibiotic-resistant germ, MRSA. 

"Now's the time to be a little bolder and ask the right questions," says Henriksen. "You do not want to be a victim, especially when most hotels will move you without question and will do a proper inspection right away. They don't want their guests to leave the hotel with bedbugs and they don't want the problem to go untreated, either."

Ask about bedbug prevention plans
Prior to check-in, ask the hotel what practices they've put in place to deal with bedbug prevention and treatment. 

"The overwhelming majority of businesses in the hospitality industry are doing a great job in having an action plan in place to protect themselves and their guests," says Henriksen. Many hotels conduct proactive inspections and work with pest management companies to quickly remedy any problems.

Read reviews (cautiously)
With a little Internet research, it's easy to find out if bedbugs have been reported at your hotel: The Bed Bug Registry, for example, is a free online database of user-submitted reports across North America. Travel sites like TripAdvisor and Yelp may also offer clues in their customer reviews. 

Don't put too much stock in these resources, though, warns Henriksen. "There's no accountability for what people are posting," she says. "It could be a disgruntled employee or a competing property. And even if the hotel does have a room with a problem, they will jump on it right away. Just because one guest room has a problem on Saturday, it certainly doesn't mean they'll be there on Wednesday or that it's a hotel-wide problem."

Pitch a tent
One way to make sure bugs aren't lurking in your bed on vacation? Bring your lodging with you. "Bedbugs are hitchhikers," says Henriksen. "They come into your life based on you being somewhere else where they are." Because of this, there's little chance you'll come in contact with them if you're pitching a tent in the woods, for example, or traveling in your own mobile home. 

Don't feel compelled to avoid hotels forever, though. Wherever you are, there's a chance you could pick up and bring home bedbugs while you're out and about, Henriksen adds. 

But if you've planned a camping trip, your chances of encountering bedbugs will likely be lower.

Have a post-vacation plan
When you return home from vacation, wash all your clothing—even the items you didn't wear—in hot water. Bedbugs can't survive in temperatures above 122 degrees Fahrenheit, says Henriksen, so this will assure they don't take up residence in your drawers and closets. (Sending delicates to the dry cleaner will work, too.) 

Inspect and vacuum out your suitcases before storing them away, as well—and if you've invested in a plastic luggage case, keep it sealed up until you need it next.

Watch for bedbug bite marks
Bite marks are one sign that you may have brought bedbugs home with you, says Henriksen. "They often bite in a line-shaped pattern, in threes: In the industry we call that breakfast, lunch, and dinner." 

Itching or bites alone aren't enough to confirm an infestation, however. If you experience these symptoms, you'll need a professional home evaluation before you can seek treatment.

Call a professional
"Bedbugs are not a do-it-yourself pest," says Henriksen. If you suspect that you've brought home bedbugs from a recent vacation, call a pest-management service to conduct an inspection. 

A professional will look around your bed for signs of the insects, and may use a bedbug-sniffing dog if he can't identify the source. Once an infestation is confirmed, he may use heat, freezing, vacuuming, or steaming methods to clear your home.

Don't make yourself crazy
Bedbugs have been found in all 50 states, in many locations—rural, urban, and suburban. "They're an equal-opportunity pest," says Henriksen. "They can be in budget properties as well as four-star resorts." 

But there's no reason to douse yourself, your kids, or your home with insecticides, says Johnson. 

"Panic and paranoia doesn't help at all," adds Henriksen. "Vigilance is the most important thing—following the checklist, doing an inspection—and those are the things that are going to minimize your likelihood of an infestation."

Toss the bed cover
Bedspreads are notorious havens for dust mites (and worse). Stash it in the corner of the room.

Disinfect
Wipe down the TV remote and telephone with an antibacterial wipe before first use.

Don’t reuse
Avoid the reusable glasses, even if they have a paper cover on top (plastic sealed cups are preferable).
 

FoTi

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Holy cow! I'm glad I'm not going anywhere. Bed bugs....what a hassle. Kind of spoils traveling. Nothing like a relaxing vacation having to protect oneself from bedbugs.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

momentum is a funny thing

by the mid 60s, Hubbard had been over the top in greed and evil any number of times in major ways, but he still put a lot of energy into growing the thing

by 1970, the veneer of "Mr. Good Guy" was seriously beginning to unravel from the day to day LRH

by the mid 70s he was an avaricious demon with a thin veneer. there were thousands of starry eyed young people from the baby boomer generation pushing the stats up

there never was a time that Hubbard would turn the ship around and be a well rounded leader. It wasn't a part of his makeup to be fair. He was only in it for himself. Everything else was part of the act. The act got him and Scientology a long way.

all the good people and good intentions could either be do it his way or take the highway. John McMaster and Jack Horner, Reg Sharpe, Alan Walter, the list only starts there

On your last paragraph which I highlighted in blue, it seems to me that several big name Scientology leaders WANTED TO DO IT HIS WAY AND WERE DOING IT HIS WAY and his reaction was still to have them take the highway!

Yvonne Jentzsch certainly comes to mind as being in that category. Otto Roos, who tried to repair LRH's auditing case and get him cleaned up, is another in this category and then of course there was David Mayo, assiduously trying to be true to LRH's tech and do everything standardly to forward what he believed were LRH's goals - he is special in one particular way, he actually saved LRH's life and extended it several years and yet he was still booted out in the worse possible way.
Lakey
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey...you were trying to swim against the tide.

The undertow was too strong.

LRH was not about to change his ways no matter what you or anyone else did. Your good intentions toward the staff were not in line with the way LRH wanted things to be. He could have cared less about the well being of his staff.....he only had them there to serve him and carry out his wishes.....his intentions.....to benefit him only. They were his slaves and he had them mindf*@ked..... hornswaggled...subtley hypnotized....to be that way and act on his behalf....not on their own behalf.

Scientology was never intended to help individuals live a better life and achieve their own personal dreams.....that was just PR....Scientology was intended to help LRH achieve his dream....he needed all those people working together to help him achieve his affirmations. There were some gains to be made in the process, otherwise people would not have stayed on, but the main thing was to pressure, pressure, pressure.... push and shove and cajole and punish and demand obedience and bend people to the mindset of LRH....to fulfill his prophecies of himself, for himself.

........................<snip>.................................

Do you really think he would have changed the way the staff were treated just because you pointed out the out-points?LRH had his own adjenda....you just didn't fit in....you were too kind, too logical, too much of a free thinker.

.........................<snip>.................................

LRH's creation....the Co$.... is a glorified institution of voluntary slavery......a bundle of false purposes.

FoTi - I wanted to comment on the question above, concerning me, which I highlighted in blue.

In 1977 when I sent LRH those two letters on the S.O. #1 line, I was not on to him yet and did believe that if I did a correct eval, he might use all or a portion of it.

From today's perspective, I am no longer that naive. HOWEVER, he seemed to make it a common practice to use portions of other people's recommendations, not the way in which the originator's intended but rather in other ways which would benefit mainly LRH. Two examples come to mind.

In Agnes Hadley's story of her Sea Org career, from the early 1960's to the early 1980's she tells how she saw Les Dane's book "Big League Sales Closing Techniques". At the time, it was against policy for S.O. staff to read any non LRH book to help get their stats up. Even so, Agnes read and applied this book and her stats immediately soared.

LRH immediately noticed the gains and asked her to write up her successful actions. She gave up her "withhold" that she read Les Dane's book. LRH had nothing but praise for her and immediately adapted "Big League" techniques for use in all the Orgs around the world (of course Agnes was given no credit).

Big League wasn't brought in to help Org staff or public but instead to help LRH, just as you say in your post.

Another instance was Study Tech. He immediately stole that from the originators and put it to use in the Org's, claiming it as his own. In this instance, people often benefitted from study tech but that is not why LRH adopted it, it was used mainly to push his agenda.

Very similar to Study Tech, I believe that if I wrote up something to enchance Staff members, LRH might have adopted part of it, not to enhance staff members but mainly to push his agenda.

Also, I am not sure of this but I seem to recall a post called "Staff Enhancement Officer" existing in CCLA's Division I. It might have been in the same department which contained the recruiter. CCLA never had a full time Staff Enhancement Officer. If ever any enhancement was to be done, it would have been done from above by the Department head or by the recruiter.

If there was such a section, it would have had to have a statistic. That statistic was not known to any of the rank and file staff members, or the Execs for that matter because no one ever held the post.

For a stat to have a large impact on an Org, it had to be one of the Org's 27 GDSes, Gross Divisional Statistics. These were graphed and presented to the staff at the large staff meeting held every Thursday night.
Lakey
 

FoTi

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

On your last paragraph which I highlighted in blue, it seems to me that several big name Scientology leaders WANTED TO DO IT HIS WAY AND WERE DOING IT HIS WAY and his reaction was still to have them take the highway!

Yvonne Jentzsch certainly comes to mind as being in that category. Otto Roos, who tried to repair LRH's auditing case and get him cleaned up, is another in this category and then of course there was David Mayo, assiduously trying to be true to LRH's tech and do everything standardly to forward what he believed were LRH's goals - he is special in one particular way, he actually saved LRH's life and extended it several years and yet he was still booted out in the worse possible way.
Lakey

I never heard that LRH tried to get rid of Yvonne....did he?

I don't know if LRH or DM actually got rid of Mayo. I thought DM was the comm line between LRH and Mayo and possibly it was DM who brought this about and not really LRH. Do you know?
 

FoTi

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

The Co$ is like a black hole......people disappear into it.......some make it back out......some don't.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I never heard that LRH tried to get rid of Yvonne....did he?

I don't know if LRH or DM actually got rid of Mayo. I thought DM was the comm line between LRH and Mayo and possibly it was DM who brought this about and not really LRH. Do you know?

With Yvonne, all I used to know is what I had read on ESMB but I recently read some new information in Janet Reitman's new book, "Inside Scientology". When CCLA was on La Brea Blvd in 1976 she got into Hubbard's dog house. He had to be careful how he got rid of her because she was so popular and had so many people who loved her.

What was done was to announce that Celebrity Centre would have two Commanding Officers, one would remain at La Brea Blvd. and run the operation there and that would NOT be Yvonne. Yvonne was to be sent to The Chareau Elysee, which C of S had recently acquired and she would be the "C. O. for Celebrities". I believe that Irene Derman was the one who stayed at La Brea and was the real C.O. The Registrar, Hector, had also given me this same information in 2010.

Very ironically, just like her husband, Heber Jentzsch, who was later made President of the C of S but had absolutely no power, Yvonne Jentzsch's title of "Second C.O." had no power. Her job appointment was made only for PR purposes because her outright dismissal would have caused too big of a PR flap. She was a figurehead only. Her power was taken away from her around early 1977 and by early 1978, she died of cancer at Flag. Was there a connection between these two events? You make your own decision. IMO it may not have lead directly to her death but almost certainly, it was a factor.

On the Mayo thing, from reading posts on ESMB, I used to believe as you did, that DM controlled all communications into LRH and that DM had either tricked LRH into buying off on Mayo being a "Suppressive Person" or this fact was concealed from LRH.

Again, the Janet Reitman book put a new spin on this for me, a spin that makes a lot more sense, FoTi. This new spin dovetails beautifully with your analysis of LRH's motives in the long post which you made yesterday.

Reitman states that what got Mayo into big trouble had to do with the prices of services going up 5% a month during this period in 1982. Mayo knew the 5% price increases monthly went against existing LRH policy and he fought DM on these price rises very hard.

At this time, when LRH was not supposed to be involved in running the C of S, LRH was very much in favor of the 5% a month price increases. DM painted the picture to LRH that Mayo was fighting the price increases and therefore was a Suppressive. In alignment with your recent post, all LRH cared about, ESPECIALLY IN HIS LAST YEARS WHEN HIS MENTAL FACULTIES WERE FAILING, was amassing money and subjugating his staff. LRH therefore turned against the man who had recently saved his life and also recently helped LRH develop NOTS auditing, the most lucrative rundown ever introduced into the C of S.

Janet Reitman wrote a very well researched and well presented book which is worth reading!
Lakey
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

. Otto Roos, who tried to repair LRH's auditing case and get him cleaned up, is another in this category and then of course there was David Mayo, assiduously trying to be true to LRH's tech and do everything standardly to forward what he believed were LRH's goals - he is special in one particular way, he actually saved LRH's life and extended it several years and yet he was still booted out in the worse possible way.
Lakey


Both of these are clear-cut hanging offences for any tyrant. Otto's suggestion that LRH had a "case" that "needed repairing" - Mein Gott, the mere thought of it leaves me in shock. And Mayo presuming that he "saved" LRH's life - doesn't he know that LRH is larger than life itself? Hang him at once!

There is a post or report somewhere on this board by one of the old guys from the early fifties - I think it was that movie director's son, the de Mille guy, who pointed out that it was precisely because he witnessed LRH in a reduced state in Cuba and got him back up again that prompted LRH to kick him out. Such a person's mere presence would have been a continual reminder to all that LRH was not indestructible, and it is this that he could not abide.
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

But, so LRH was a tyrant. So what? Why would that matter in the scheme of things?
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

But, so LRH was a tyrant. So what? Why would that matter in the scheme of things?

It resulted in the whole sale abuse of tens of thousands. It has produced an institution most noted for its destructive effects. Moreover, it has served to greatly reduce the positive effects for many who have attempted to use scientology techniques to ameliorate the lives of themselves of others.

Hubbard only partially helped to develop the tech. He has been far more responsible for the damage resulting from the public discrediting of scientology and the legitimate practitioners of scientology auditing tech.

No good ever came from lying about hubbard or seeking to whitewash his actual history. It is far better to address the truth about the man openly. In this way he can be separated from the actual benefits to be had from the subject, and not simply resorted to as a cult idol for scientologists.

To the degree there is any good in the subject of scientology it is not about hubbard. No benefit is to be had from ignoring or neglecting that simple fact.


Mark A. Baker
 
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Re: The old days - Aboard the Celebrity Centre

With Yvonne, all I used to know is what I had read on ESMB but I recently read some new information in Janet Reitman's new book, "Inside Scientology". When CCLA was on La Brea Blvd in 1976 she got into Hubbard's dog house. He had to be careful how he got rid of her because she was so popular and had so many people who loved her.

What was done was to announce that Celebrity Centre would have two Commanding Officers, one would remain at La Brea Blvd. and run the operation there and that would NOT be Yvonne. Yvonne was to be sent to The Chareau Elysee, which C of S had recently acquired and she would be the "C. O. for Celebrities". I believe that Irene Derman was the one who stayed at La Brea and was the real C.O. The Registrar, Hector, had also given me this same information in 2010.

Very ironically, just like her husband, Heber Jentzsch, who was later made President of the C of S but had absolutely no power, Yvonne Jentzsch's title of "Second C.O." had no power. Her job appointment was made only for PR purposes because her outright dismissal would have caused too big of a PR flap. She was a figurehead only. Her power was taken away from her around early 1977 and by early 1978, she died of cancer at Flag. Was there a connection between these two events? You make your own decision. IMO it may not have lead directly to her death but almost certainly, it was a factor.

On the Mayo thing, from reading posts on ESMB, I used to believe as you did, that DM controlled all communications into LRH and that DM had either tricked LRH into buying off on Mayo being a "Suppressive Person" or this fact was concealed from LRH.

Again, the Janet Reitman book put a new spin on this for me, a spin that makes a lot more sense, FoTi. This new spin dovetails beautifully with your analysis of LRH's motives in the long post which you made yesterday.

Reitman states that what got Mayo into big trouble had to do with the prices of services going up 5% a month during this period in 1982. Mayo knew the 5% price increases monthly went against existing LRH policy and he fought DM on these price rises very hard.

At this time, when LRH was not supposed to be involved in running the C of S, LRH was very much in favor of the 5% a month price increases. DM painted the picture to LRH that Mayo was fighting the price increases and therefore was a Suppressive. In alignment with your recent post, all LRH cared about, ESPECIALLY IN HIS LAST YEARS WHEN HIS MENTAL FACULTIES WERE FAILING, was amassing money and subjugating his staff. LRH therefore turned against the man who had recently saved his life and also recently helped LRH develop NOTS auditing, the most lucrative rundown ever introduced into the C of S.

Janet Reitman wrote a very well researched and well presented book which is worth reading!
Lakey

When we were last discussing this subject in earnest, one of Yvonne's daughters was giving input, and, if I recall correctly, she stated something to the effect that LRH thought highly of Yvonne. At the time, I didn't want to shake anyone's notions too much.

My understanding, based on conversations with Alan Walter and one or two others, who shall remain nameless, was that LRH really didn't like Yvonne. My understanding is that for the same reason he sunk Alan Walter, John McMaster, Jack Horner, Rocky Stump, and a slew of others --- jealousy of their personal power.

What I've written above is only hearsay and conjecture. I stand by it though.

I think it can be said, truthfully, that as Yvonne was dying at Flag, she really wasn't a happy peppy preppy going rah rah rah for LRH and Scientology. She left the scene as gracefully as she could. I don't for a moment believe she has returned with a new body to rejoin the Sea Org. I think she got smarter.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

It resulted in the whole sale abuse of tens of thousands. It has produced an institution most noted for its destructive effects. Moreover, it has served to greatly reduce the positive effects for many who have attempted to use scientology techniques to ameliorate the lives of themselves of others.

Hubbard only partially helped to develop the tech. He has been far more responsible for the damage resulting from the public discrediting of scientology and the legitimate practitioners of scientology auditing tech.

No good ever came from lying about hubbard or seeking to whitewash his actual history. It is far better to address the truth about the man openly. In this way he can be separated from the actual benefits to be had from the subject, and not simply resorted to as a cult idol for scientologists.

To the degree there is any good in the subject of scientology it is not about hubbard. No benefit is to be had from ignoring or neglecting that simple fact.


Mark A. Baker

Good posting MAB This is vintage Mark Baker, you state your points clearly and concisely!
Lakey
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Re: The old days - Aboard the Celebrity Centre

When we were last discussing this subject in earnest, one of Yvonne's daughters was giving input, and, if I recall correctly, she stated something to the effect that LRH thought highly of Yvonne. At the time, I didn't want to shake anyone's notions too much.

My understanding, based on conversations with Alan Walter and one or two others, who shall remain nameless, was that LRH really didn't like Yvonne. My understanding is that for the same reason he sunk Alan Walter, John McMaster, Jack Horner, Rocky Stump, and a slew of others --- jealousy of their personal power.

What I've written above is only hearsay and conjecture. I stand by it though.

I think it can be said, truthfully, that as Yvonne was dying at Flag, she really wasn't a happy peppy preppy going rah rah rah for LRH and Scientology. She left the scene as gracefully as she could. I don't for a moment believe she has returned with a new body to rejoin the Sea Org. I think she got smarter.

Thanks for your incites Carmelo! I know that Janis Grady mentioned that after her death, Yvonne had an office or some sort of display center, similar to an office of LRH, set up at CCLA. This remained for quite a few years. DM did not like it and had it removed. DM seems to share LRH's trait of not allowing any seconds in command to steal any of his thunder.

DM did have seconds in command at times, much more than LRH ever did. In fact, LRH never allowed even one second in command to exist. If LRH had one, it would probably be Mary Sue Hubbard and she ended up serving prison time for him.

Marty Rathbun, Norman Starkey, Ronnie Miscavige, Guillarme Lefebvre, and Ray Mithoff at times were Miscavige's seconds in command. The only one with staying power seems to be Norman Starkey. Of course there is Tom Cruise, but being a celibrity and not in management, the second in command thing is quite different.

LRH may have had mixed feelings about Yvonne. Undoubtedly, having Celebrities enter Scn was one of his "hobby horses" dating back to the 50's. Yvonne actually ran with ball and made this happen for him. As a result, his movement was much better known and was generating much more money and influence than would have otherwise been the case.

To his narcissistic mind, the downside to LRH must have been that Yvonne was too popular and loved and was looked at by people at CCLA as nearly equal to LRH in power and influence.

LRH probably bided his time for a couple of years and once the CC network was functioning well and growing, he likely decided to take the step he had considered earlier and that was to get rid of Yvonne. She had served her purpose and served him well doing that and by 1977, she was no longer indispensible and so she was axed but it was done in such a way so as not to cause any "Shore Flap".
Lakey
 
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Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Re: The old days - Aboard the Celebrity Centre

<snip> Rocky Stump <snip>

Somewhat off topic....Got a CS to do a date/locate on a PC at a time there was no written data on date/locate. The old man replied " Go get Rocky to tell you how to do it, he knows how". At the time it seemed odd as it was that dreaded " verbal data " rolled into a "hidden data line".

And, indeed, Rocky knew how to do it. Shared it and it was done.

Some time later date/locate was written up and issued.

:omg:If I had a nickel for every D/L I have done I could buy another bridge! :omg::lol:
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

It resulted in the whole sale abuse of tens of thousands. It has produced an institution most noted for its destructive effects. Moreover, it has served to greatly reduce the positive effects for many who have attempted to use scientology techniques to ameliorate the lives of themselves of others.

Hubbard only partially helped to develop the tech. He has been far more responsible for the damage resulting from the public discrediting of scientology and the legitimate practitioners of scientology auditing tech.

No good ever came from lying about hubbard or seeking to whitewash his actual history. It is far better to address the truth about the man openly. In this way he can be separated from the actual benefits to be had from the subject, and not simply resorted to as a cult idol for scientologists.

To the degree there is any good in the subject of scientology it is not about hubbard. No benefit is to be had from ignoring or neglecting that simple fact.


Mark A. Baker


Yeah sure - the guy was mad and bad - no doubt about it. But he's been dead for how long now? What is to ge gained by continuallty harping on the fact? For new-outers yes, but bot for those who have said it a thousand times already.

For them it is time surely to sift out the good - as many others have done - and work at developing it further into something truly worthwhile. Some guys have done much on this already - Alan, Dennis Stephens, Robert Ducharme, even CBR. Others too.

That's the way to go with this stuff. Not sit and bellyache about how bad a dog LRH was.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Yeah sure - the guy was mad and bad - no doubt about it. But he's been dead for how long now? What is to ge gained by continuallty harping on the fact? For new-outers yes, but bot for those who have said it a thousand times already.

For them it is time surely to sift out the good - as many others have done - and work at developing it further into something truly worthwhile. Some guys have done much on this already - Alan, Dennis Stephens, Robert Ducharme, even CBR. Others too.

That's the way to go with this stuff. Not sit and bellyache about how bad a dog LRH was.

Lots and lots of people still in read here. They become fence sitters. Then they leave.

This drives OSA fucking nuts that the truth about LRH gets told and it costs OSA more and more of the precious few 'members' left in the flock.

Yeah, OSA objects to the truth being told about LRH.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Yeah sure - the guy was mad and bad - no doubt about it. But he's been dead for how long now? What is to ge gained by continuallty harping on the fact? For new-outers yes, but bot for those who have said it a thousand times already. ...

Actually it is even more important with those who are long term out yet still in denial about lrh's actual character. :eyeroll: However, those types tend to be all too fearful of involvement on boards like esmb.

I agree with you that a focus on the sins of lrh possesses limited value. Afterall, as you indicated, hubbard has been dead for more than two decades. Few enough scientologists, whether active or ex, knew him or ever had direct contact with the man.

The fixation on lrh is a bit like holy rollers preaching hellfire & damnation to a congregation of religious fundamentalists. All the noise serves as a distraction to reason. It achieves little in itself and amounts to yet another form of the 'cult of hubbard' as in obsession with lrh. :eyeroll:

Still, on a public board like esmb, there are always people in flux. My own preferences are that the facts be laid out for all to see in publicly accessible materials (the internet has proved to be an excellent resource to this end), any questions from individuals should be referred to available sources and first hand accounts which provide accurate data about the life & times of lrh, and that sermons & rants on the 'goodness' or 'evil' of lrh be avoided.

At the present lrh serves mostly as historical background with regard to the church, its policies, and its pursuits. Attempts made by 'lrh loyalists' in an effort "to preserve hubbard's good name" are utterly misguided. LRH in his life and through his own actions made sure he left no 'good name' to be preserved. Their efforts would be better directed in identifying for themselves what particular aspects of the subject of scientology may still have value to them and use it in pursuing their own interests. By all means they should forgo the continuance of hubbard's holy war upon the world. It was never anything other than an lrh dramatization in which too many were willingly caught up. Unfortunately, many have drunk so deeply from that cup that they remain a long way from a state of sobriety.

Fortunately there is now plentiful information readily on line which gives an accurate reflection on hubbard's life & character. Much can be readily found via an internet search engine. Many such accounts have been posted on esmb by such individuals as Face, Alan, Dart, Challenge, et al. These accounts are all valuable in that they reflect the first hand observations of the actual history of the church by those who experienced the events as they unfolded. They represent real contributions and excellent resources for those who wish to better understand the attraction and actuality of the cult of hubbard & the church of scientology.


Mark A. Baker
 
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