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It occurred to me one day that no one could truly be “out” until everyone else was out. Silly, maybe, but that was real to me and that concept began to gnaw at me. Everyone and everything in such a rush to get “out”…using each other, El Ron included, as stepping stones. Over time, I began to doubt that Scn was the way out, that if I used others as stepping stones I might eventually run out of stones and be lost. And, later, I realized that if I used anyone as a stepping stone I was, at that very moment, lost.

Congratulations on your Bodhisattva Cognition. :coolwink:

And yes, apart from a little light jesting, I mean that sincerely. :yes:

Namaste



Mark, have you read LRH's novel, "Fear"? It is different and a couple of cuts above his other novels. Stephen King recommends it highly on its jacket. I bought it in the late 90's from a bookstore featuring it along with the Stephen King quote.
Lakey

No. On your recommendation I'll do so.

Maybe next time I go up to LA for a protest I can swing by ASI and get them to sell me a copy. I could borrow a Guy Fawkes mask from an anon and ask the folks at ASI if they will sell a copy to a masked man. :D


Mark A. Baker
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
No big deal here for me.

I would disagree. Depends on the case level (awareness) of the praying being.

Consider the communication formula. In order to be in communication there must be some sharing of affinity. An effective prayer places being and deity in the same space even if only in part.

That which is perceived to emanate from Cause will appear at Effect if for no other reason than the mechanics of communication. If the deity is perceived as wrathful, wrath appears at Effect. If what is perceived to be compassion and forgiveness appears at Cause, forgiveness and compassion appear at Effect. And so on.

Consider creative processing (mockup processing).

How do you, should you, would you perceive Jesus? Mock him up standing in the room. Send him some "Hello's" and "Okays" to establish communication.

Then you can converse, ask questions, have him jump up and down, or he request or require the same of you. No limitations.

I suspect that creative processing fell out of use because it works so damn fast. That's not good for the GI.

Prayer? That's just Solo Creative Processing.

Where to earn your next buck? More creative processing through the physical universe.

How and where to steal a buck? More creative processing.

Brainstorming? That's group creative processing.

The next time you see someone praying see if you can guess at who or what they are praying to and the effectiveness of the process.


I don't have much certainty when speculating as I did about God related activities. The level of awareness I was predicating my comments on were based on just garden variety Christianity and also Judaism being applied by ordinary people. The kind of people I am talking about believe that God occupies all space and he automatically knows what they are thinking immediately and so forth. Any thought they think, they automatically believe God knows it immediately so with this type of set up, it is hard to speak of a full comm formula being applied. in the eyes of most Christians and Jews, they do not have to pray to have God in their spaces, he is automatically always in their space.

As far as Jesus, most good Christians would totally supplicate to him and go on their knees. The Christian believe he already knows all their thoughts as wll and pervades their entire space. Now Jews could talk to him the way you mentiion and so could all other non Christians.

On Creative Processing, it seems as if LRH thought it was wonderful and the answer to all questions somewhere in the 1952 and 1953 time period and then suddenly he disabused himself of this fact. I thought there was a technical problem which arose at the time. This is all from listening to the various Congress CDs. I don't believe he was totally in to GI when he dropped creative processing but that rather he dropped it for some technical reasons. I am not 100% sure on this. Perhaps Veda could make one of his cameo appearances to clean this matter up.

I agree that at higher levels, prayer can have meaning but at the level at which most practicing Christians, Jews and Muslims operate from, its value is severely limited. I am just guessing and don't really know. Its possible you are right but I don't find your arguments persuasive enough to sway me on this particular topic.
Lakey
 
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Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't have much certainty when speculating as I did about God related activities. The level of awareness I was predicating my comments on were based on just garden variety Christianity and also Judaism being applied by ordinary people. The kind of people I am talking about believe that God occupies all space and he automatically knows what they are thinking immediately and so forth. Any thought they think, they automatically believe God knows it immediately so with this type of set up, it is hard to speak of a full comm formula being applied. in the eyes of most Christians and Jews, they do not have to pray to have God in their spaces, he is automatically always in their space.

As far as Jesus, most good Christians would totally supplicate to him and go on their knees. The Christian believe he already knows all their thoughts as wll and pervades their entire space. Now Jews could talk to him the way you mentiion and so could all other non Christians.

On Creative Processing, it seems as if LRH thought it was wonderful and the answer to all questions somewhere in the 1952 and 1953 time period and then suddenly he disabused himself of this fact. I thought there was a technical problem which arose at the time. This is all from listening to the various Congress CDs. I don't believe he was totally in to GI when he dropped creative processing but that rather he dropped it for some technical reasons. I am not 100% sure on this. Perhaps Veda could make one of his cameo appearances to clean this matter up.

I agree that at higher levels, prayer can have meaning but at the level at which most practicing Christians, Jews and Muslims operate from, its value is severely limited. I am just guessing and don't really know. Its possible you are right but I don't find your arguments persuasive enough to sway me on this particular topic.
Lakey


Since I am not a spokesperson for every Christian, Jew, or Muslim I am powerless to advance any argument.

My argument might be reduced to this: Creative Processing is a good thing. Prayer and meditation are beneficial practices. How good depends on the practitioner's awareness and skill level. That what you see is not always what is.
 
Echo Park

I heard this long piece on NPR today about Mark Twain releasing his autobiography 100 years after his death. He died in 1910. So I went to NPR's website to get more info. As I was looking , I saw an article on a novel set in Echo Park, a section of LA, that I spent a little time in during the 70s. I lived on Douglas St. up near Elysian Park overlooking Dodger Stadium to the east and downtown LA to the west. There was the Pioneer Chicken Stand on Sunset that Warren Zevon mentions in "Carmelita" Several of us on the bc used to go to Echo Park on Sundays, picnic, and hang out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u04p5SEarYQ&feature=related

The other night, at the party, some of us were talking about the attitude toward Mexican immigrants currently politically "very hot potato"

Several years ago, my wife and I saw this movie, La Misma Luna (Under the Same Moon). We loved it so much, we went back and back again to see it on the silver screen. It is one of my favorite movies of all time. When it came out on DVD, I gave it to friends. It is the only movie that I have on my hard drive. Echo Park (the neighborhood) is featured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11PHPNzvUUU

This I copied off NPR's web site:

'The Madonnas Of Echo Park': Residents, Reinvented
by MANDALIT DEL BARCO

Echo Park, L.A. -- a hilly, diverse, gentrifying neighborhood that was once a backlot for silent movies.
July 6, 2010
In the 1920s, the hilly Los Angeles neighborhood of Echo Park was known as the home of silent film. But that was before the film industry moved to nearby Hollywood and "white flight" forever changed the face of Echo Park. Writer Brando Skyhorse, 36, grew up there mostly with Vietnamese and Mexican immigrants in the 1970s and '80s when Echo Park was better known for its drive-by shootings than its cinematic history. He has channeled his memories of the neighborhood into a new novel, The Madonnas of Echo Park.

Skyhorse says he always felt like an outsider in the neighborhood. "I was definitely the nerdy kid with the book bag, with the glasses and the whole thing," Skyhorse says. "I didn't hang out with gangs, or anything. I don't even think I even considered it an option because I wasn't cool enough for that. I wasn't even worthy enough to be hassled by them. I was just totally invisible."


Mandalit del Barco/NPR
Brando Skyhorse is now writing a memoir called Things My Fathers Taught Me.
His name, he explains, "was my mother's idea. She named me Brando because of Marlon Brando's involvement in Native American activities in the early 70s — you know, he turned down the Academy Award. She decided to name me Brando as sort of an homage to him and I realize now that she was just a really big fan of The Godfather."

Skyhorse says his late mother was very involved in the American Indian movement of the 1970s. He says his mom identified as Native American even though she'd been born Mexican American.

"She got in contact with a man who was incarcerated, and his last name was Skyhorse and I became Brando Skyhorse," he said. "My mother changed her name as well, and she became Running Deer Skyhorse."

A 'Weird Cast Of Characters'

But Skyhorse's outsider status helped him develop an observer's eye for the people he, his grandmother and his mother encountered.

"What I was exposed to was the working class element of Echo Park that you don't see in books or movies because it's not as glamorous," he recalled. "I mean ... who wants to read about someone who cleans houses all day? Well, that's, you know, interesting to me."


The Madonnas Of Echo Park
By Brando Skyhorse
Hardcover, 224 pages
Free Press
List price: $23
Read An Excerpt

In The Madonnas of Echo Park, Skyhorse draws from his childhood memories to tell the story of Echo Park as he knew it.

"There was this sort of weird cast of characters just kind of around the neighborhood," he says. "There was this one elderly lady who used to wear a turban and this lime green coat, and she would walk up and down the neighborhood. For some reason, she always stopped at our house… because I guess my grandmother was very chatty… and she'd stop at 1 in the morning, pound on the door and say, 'This is the police, open up!'"

In Skyhorse's novel, she becomes a woman who wears many coats and who at one point encounters the Virgin Mary at a bus stop on Sunset Boulevard.

"It's left up to you to decide whether what she's doing is having a hallucination or whether she's crazy, or whether she's actually experiencing a miracle that people are just ignoring," Skyhorse says.

'Interested In Reinvention'

Other characters include an undocumented day laborer, a recently paroled hustler and a little girl named Alma. He says he calls them all "Madonnas," because — like the performer — "every single character is interested in reinvention: becoming more than what you have been told you can become, becoming more than what you think you're capable of being."

But there's a more visible connection between Madonna and Echo Park than that. You need only look to the artist's early music videos for songs like "Borderline" which were shot in Echo Park and in which Madonna looks like a chola, a homegirl from around the way.

"There was this discussion that there was this young attractive Mexican girl and she was a pop star. Why is she singing in English?" he remembered. "And, of course, we later found out she wasn't [from here]. But I don't think people in the neighborhood cared. It didn't matter. That was their initial impression, and there was nothing that was going to change them or dissuade them from thinking otherwise."

Skyhorse says that memory sparked his interest in revisiting the neighborhood so long after he had left it.


Judging from the neighborhood's reaction, it looks like Skyhorse's novel has hit home. Sixteen-year-olds Brenda Marones, Yesenia Pum, Ana Rivas and Michelle De Leon — all writers at the writing group 826LA — are Echo Park residents who say Skyhorse has painted a realistic portrait of their home.

"He's trying to show the Latino story of Echo Park," Marones says.

When they're asked if they consider themselves Madonnas of Echo Park, they giggle but they all agree.

"Of course, it finally feels good to be the story," De Leon says.

Rivas adds, "It kinda makes me proud to live in Echo Park."

Excerpt - 'The Madonnas Of Echo Park'
by BRANDO SKYHORSE


The Madonnas Of Echo Park
By Brando Skyhorse
Hardcover, 224 pages
Free Press
List price: $23
Author's Note

This book was written because of a twelve-year-old girl named Aurora Esperanza. In the 1980s, before I knew I was Mexican, Aurora and I were in a sixth-grade class of American-born Mexicans and first-generation Vietnamese immigrants, both groups segregating themselves into clusters on opposite sides of the room. This was an awkward arrangement for me, because though I felt I belonged to neither group, my Mexican-ness would peek out every so often from under the shadow of my stepfather's last name when I rolled a vowel too long in my mouth, or grew coarse tufts of premature facial hair. Emphasizing my "in between" status, a desk chair shortage placed me alone at an oversize table with an obstructed view of the chalkboard and my back to the American flag.

There was a constant tension in the classroom, each group suspicious of the other for conspiratorial hushes peppered with strange, foreign-sounding words that shared jokes, kept secrets, plotted insurrections. We were, however, still kids, and our hunger for the latest fads led us to break ethnic ranks and whisper in a common language of desire. We wanted Garbage Pail Kids and Pac-Man sticker trading cards, packaged with sticks of bone-hard bubble gum you could rub against the pavement to write out your name in pink zigzagged letters, a scent of hot caramelized sugar lingering on the concrete. We wanted futuristic digital watches that blinked out the time in a blood-red neon LCD phosphorescence, as bright as a sparkler strapped to your wrist.

And, of course, we wanted our MTV.

It was the rare child in Echo Park whose family could afford something as frivolous as cable television. Most families had one or two parents working a spread of jobs to support both their kids and their in-laws living under one roof. My family had a different arrangement, but I was as astonished as any of my friends would have been when one afternoon I found MTV installed on my very own television in my room, a present for getting a part-time job as an after-school ESL tutor. I sat twelve inches away from the screen, transfixed for the next seven hours, leaving it on when I went to bed with the sound off like a night-light. The next morning, I spread its legend in Ms. O'Neill's class, watching the tale jump from Mexican to Vietnamese and from boy to girl, just as difficult a bridge to cross at our ages. You could watch music on television? Yes, and every song has a story, and every story has a happy ending. You could watch Michael Jackson dance whenever you wanted? Yes, and when he walks, each step he takes lights up the sidewalk. Here was a way you could see how the music on our cheap transistor radios looked, these popular songs that throbbed with glamour, desire, and plastic gratification—a reimagining of the American Dream in bright pastels. Our parents didn't comprehend the words and were fearful that the songs they had fallen in love with growing up would be attached to a language we'd never speak and a country we'd never see.

Right before lunch, Ms. O'Neill intercepted a note I'd written to a table of Mexican boys outlining everything on MTV the night before: girls in short skirts dancing down a street in a conga line; girls with shorter skirts dressed as cheerleaders forming a bright Day-Glo pyramid; girls in bikinis dancing by an open fire hydrant. Ms. O'Neill asked how many of us thought MTV was "cool," and thanks to my classroom gospel, everyone's hand shot up. MTV was now our mutual language.

The next day, Ms. O'Neill announced plans for an "MTV Dance Party" in our classroom on the Friday before spring break. There would be those expensive Soft Batch cookies that got gummy and elastic like rubber bands if you left them out for more than a day (making them an impractical purchase for most of us because junk food had to last in our houses), two-liter bottles of Coke and Pepsi (not the generic, white-label, noncarbonated sludge with soda stamped on its side that we drank at home), and Domino's pizza. In a neighborhood where takeout was considered extravagant, this was the equivalent of a Roman bacchanal. There would also be music. Each of us was to bring in a record and play it. A number of hands shot up in confusion. What if we didn't have any records of our own? Borrow them from your brothers, sisters, or parents, Ms. O'Neill said. What if they didn't have records either? Buy a record you'd want to play. What if we can't afford to buy one? Buy a single, she suggested, they cost the same as two packs of those gross Garbage Pail sticker cards you're so fond of. All but one hand went down. Aurora Esperanza's pink fingernails sparkled as her white cotton blouse sleeve fell back down her arm and curled up against her bare shoulder.

"Will we be allowed to dance in the classroom?" she asked. "Will there be dancing?"

"It's a dance party," Ms. O'Neill said. "Yes, there will be dancing."

Dancing? The boys didn't like the sound of this. Were we expected to dance with girls? And were Mexican boys to dance with Vietnamese girls? What about Vietnamese boys—would they dance with Mexican girls? Then a more terrifying thought arose: Who would I dance with? By the end of class, I had formed a pact with two Vietnamese boys I had never spoken to before, not to dance with any girl, even if we were asked. There were many other treaties of convenience made that day, as boys and girls who had segregated themselves by race and language throughout the year became unexpected allies in an effort to outsmart our teacher, who was white. Who, we wondered, would she dance with?

Excerpted from Madonnas Of Echo Park by Brando Skyhorse. Copyright 2010 by Brando Skyhorse. Excerpted by permission of Free Press Books.
 
una mass from NPR

Retail Guru Knows 'What Women Want'



What's the contemporary woman looking for in a mall? According to Paco Underhill, a safe form of escape.
July 5, 2010
Women are wealthier, more powerful and more independent than ever.

In What Women Want, Paco Underhill explains that smart businesses are adapting to accommodate women — a group that makes up more than half of their customers, in many cases.

No business, he argues, can afford to ignore the power of women. No matter what the product in question — cars, appliances, homes, hotels, restaurants, banks, homes, clothing — retailers must focus on what women want.

Businesses have already made changes to reflect women's desires. Take, for example, hotel bathrooms. The shower curtains at many hotels once hung from straight rods over the bathtub. Now, you'll often find shower rods that bow out, where the curtains hang on a curved track.


What Women Want: The Global Marketplace Turns Female Friendly
By Paco Underhill
Hardcover, 224 pages
Simon & Schuster
List price: $25.00
Read An Excerpt

But how is that about women?

"When you check into a hotel," Underhill asks NPR's Neal Conan, "are you conscious that there have been 365 strangers staying in that hotel room over the past year since you checked in?"

Men may not be, but women often are. And if you think about what gets touched, washed or wiped down in a hotel room, the shower curtain isn't likely to be on that list.

Underhill believes the concern about hygiene is something that is wired into women's systems. The bowed shower curtain is an improvement, then, because it doesn't touch you while you wash.

Hoteliers have made additional changes to accommodate women — particularly female business travelers, who are some of the most brand conscious customers around. In addition to hygiene, another of their primary concerns is security.

"If I'm checking into the Marriott O'Hare and somebody says 'Mr. Underhill you're in room 722,' in a loud voice, I don't have a security alarm that goes off in my head." But if you're a woman, it may.

So, now, customers at check-in typically receive a small folder with a keycard, with the room number discreetly written, not delivered aloud. That, says Underhill, is a nod to the power of the female consumer, who must be understood. If "you fail her," and make her feel insecure, "she doesn't forget it."

Excerpt: 'What Women Want'
by PACO UNDERHILL


What Women Want: The Global Marketplace Turns Female Friendly
By Paco Underhill
Hardcover, 224 pages
Simon & Schuster
List price: $25.00
In 2005, a magical statistic stood out: for the first time in history, young women under the age of thirty in the largest American cities overtook men in earning power.

It was a shift that began in the late 1990s in urban areas like Los Angeles and Dallas. By the year 2000, it had migrated to New York City, when male and female wages came in more or less at a dead heat. Five years later, full-time working females between the ages of twenty-one and thirty living in one of the five boroughs of New York City brought home 117 percent of the wages of equivalent working males. To put it another way, for every guy pulling in a median salary of $30,560, an equivalent female was banking $35,653. And Texas isn’t associated with big bucks, big hair, and big everything for nothing. In Dallas, women’s wage earning advantage over men was 120 percent — the highest in the nation.

Pay inequities between men and women? Everyone knows they’re still out there. But in early 2009, President Obama signed an equal-pay bill designed to end gender-based income disparities. It’s way overdue.

This increase in female earning power parallels employment figures around the globe. Starting in the United States, with its current 2009 employment of 8.5 percent, the chances of being twenty-five years old and gainfully employed are higher if you’re a female than a male. These odds go up even further if we don’t consider immigrant, African-American, and Latino populations. Economic hard times favor females, too. During the recent recession, 82 percent of job losses befell men, who tend to be disproportionately represented in industries like construction and manufacturing. Historically, women are apt to work in fields such as education and health care, which are more resistant to economic swings.

One of the things I find fascinating about traveling overseas is observing how gender differences show up in various countries. In Brazil, as in the United States, the unemployment rates for men are much higher than they are for women. In the Philippines, lower-class females can find work as domestics and childcare workers around the world, while the undereducated Filipino male has been completely marginalized.

Here’s an obvious fact: The more highly educated you are, the better chance you have of being successfully employed in a well-paying job. Male or female, if you didn’t manage to make it through high school, your unemployment rate hovers around 73 percent. A high school diploma raises your chance for some kind of employment by nearly 5 percent, but with a college or grad school degree, your professional opportunities go through the roof.

This could be one reason why women are pulling so far ahead in colleges and graduate schools. Currently 140 women are awarded bachelor degrees for every 100 men in the United States. It’s a gender gap that’s only expected to increase. Between 1969 and 2000, the number of male undergraduates increased by only 39 percent. At the same time, the number of female undergraduates rose by 157 percent. Females today are outpacing males in practically all post secondary institutions, and also within African-American communities, where, according to one study, two university-educated women exist for every university educated-man.

Part of it can be attributed to the learning disabilities that are epidemic among young males. As of the early part of the twenty-first century, boys are nearly two and a half times more at risk than girls to suffer from reading disabilities. Dyslexia and autism spectrum disorders? Ten percent for boys as opposed to 6 percent for girls. In the United States, boys are also three times more likely than girls to be referred to a special education class, and twice as likely to have to repeat a school year (granted, sociodemographic factors, including the age of the parents and their own educational levels, can rearrange these statistics).

Then there’s ADHD, short for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. It covers a broad spectrum of diagnostic symptoms, ranging from inattentiveness to poor impulse control to restlessness and distractibility. Who gets it? Boys, mostly. It’s just a fact. No one seems to know why, though there are a lot of theories bouncing around. Some educators believe that the norm for classroom behavior in grades K through 6 — shhhh … concentrate … focus … — jives perfectly with the average young female temperament. Most little girls are comfortable sitting; little boys tend to squirm, fidget, and daydream. Whether we’re talking about hyperactivity or dyslexia, often young boys aren’t in their natural groove in the classroom while their female classmates thrive, which may ultimately help explain why females are making such educational giant steps.

Another critical women are making such headway in their careers — and really, I can’t emphasize this enough — is babies. Or rather, the lack of them. Or rather, the option to choose if, when, and with whom you have one. We’ve stepped over a magical line in the history of our own human species. Thanks to birth control, we’ve decoupled sex from procreation and moved away from biology. Female sexuality, the reproductive kind, is in flux and in play. If you harbor any doubts, rent and old season or two of Sex and the City, or watch the movie. After graduating college or getting an advanced degree, many young women are in no hurry to pair up and settle down, which gives them the time, space, momentum, and luxury to pursue a professional track and make good money at it, too, at least in major American cities, where the social pressures to settle down and procreate aren’t as great in smaller or more rural areas of the country.

The ability to control the reproductive aspect of our lives has fundamentally changed some of the premises rooted in human beings as far back as the caves of East Africa. In my opinion, this isn’t good or bad — it just is.

It has also transformed our world as we know it.

Excerpted from What Women Want: The Global Marketplace Turns Female Friendly by Paco Underhill. Copyright 2010 by Peckshee, LLP. Reprinted by permission of Simon & Schuster.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
As I was looking , I saw an article on a novel set in Echo Park, a section of LA, that I spent a little time in during the 70s. I lived on Douglas St. up near Elysian Park overlooking Dodger Stadium to the east and downtown LA to the west. There was the Pioneer Chicken Stand on Sunset that Warren Zevon mentions in "Carmelita" Several of us on the bc used to go to Echo Park on Sundays, picnic, and hang out.

I lived in Echo Park (the neighborhood) between 1999 and 2004, about a mile from the actual park. I often walked around the lake there.

Paul
 

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I lived in Echo Park (the neighborhood) between 1999 and 2004, about a mile from the actual park. I often walked around the lake there.

Paul

I was in that neighborhood about a year ago. There was a new - to - me mariscos stand on Sunset that had a great menu. I filled up on a tostada de ceviche. Echo Park always seemed peaceful, especially in comparison to MacArthur Park. Both parks were close to the AO, ASHO, CC, and LA Org in my day.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
La Misma Luna is a great movie!!!

I saw it twice, I went with Finishedman when I was friends with that nut and then it was so good I went with my wife a few days later. I did not tell her I already saw it. Every scene was interesting, the acting was superb and the story is a fabulous concept and was well developed.

BUT THE ENDING - Incomparable! I have never seen another ending to a movie as touching as this movie's ending.
I got similar emotions from the ending of "The Shawshank Redemption" where Redd joins Andy, as free men, down on the beaches of Zihautenejo, Mexico.
Lakey
 
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Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
All the Way Out

This is great stuff, Ted.:yes::yes:

A tuning fork gives you the pitch from which to sing.

I don’t think we are all “One” but, together all of us make a whole. All of us are separate but connected, Living in this “Sea” of Life. “Theetie Wheetie” maybe, but that’s how I see “it”, how I experience “it”.

When I was in the SO we were in the business of selling folks the way to “get out of the trap”. Many were paying big bucks and working feverishly to be one of the first ones “out”. El Ron was “leading the way” and “blazing the trail”.

It occurred to me one day that no one could truly be “out” until everyone else was out. Silly, maybe, but that was real to me and that concept began to gnaw at me. Everyone and everything in such a rush to get “out”…using each other, El Ron included, as stepping stones. Over time, I began to doubt that Scn was the way out, that if I used others as stepping stones I might eventually run out of stones and be lost. And, later, I realized that if I used anyone as a stepping stone I was, at that very moment, lost.

I’m still trying to find my way…walking an uncertain, sometimes agonizing, always wondrous path. Others…like all yall…are the lamp lights, signposts and comforting breezes that ushers me forward, always forward.

No one knows, but that maybe, in the “end”, this Universe is nothing but a "creative process" we are running on each and every one of us. Maybe that’s compassion…I don’t really know, but that’s how I feel and much of the time it confuses me so, comforts me so.

Face:)


Theetie-weetie? Not at all!

Bodhisattva? You have taken the first step.

On another note, to get all the way out of scientology spin vs the truth it is advisable to examine the hubbard creature. Sometimes I think it was a blessing that hubbard was narcissistic, sometimes it is a curse. Here's what I mean.

Admiration, the very substance of a communication line, that thing which is considered desirable in the game of the three universes. Who but a narcissist would have come up with that? The perplexing thing is that there are times when confronted with some drastic poop coming out of a pc's mouth, admiring the creation with all its implications across the Dynamics helps move the pc on through to sanity.

The pc centric cycle of communication. No eval, no inval. Who but a narcissist seeking a solution to himself would have demanded such a format? No one before hubbard that I know of.

I could go on...

Facey, here is web site that I think you would enjoy. It gives an excellent description of narcissistic personality disorder from a layman's perspective. It has a description of hubbard written all over it. Since you worked so close to him I think you would profit from the info on this site:

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/howto.html

The site is loaded with good stuff like this: "Once narcissists know that you care for them, they'll suck you dry -- demand all your time, be more work than a newborn babe -- and they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves."

And this, "Narcissists use other people to get what they want without caring about the cost to the other people."

And more. Much, much more.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
I would disagree. Depends on the case level (awareness) of the praying being.

Consider the communication formula. In order to be in communication there must be some sharing of affinity. An effective prayer places being and deity in the same space even if only in part.

That which is perceived to emanate from Cause will appear at Effect if for no other reason than the mechanics of communication. If the deity is perceived as wrathful, wrath appears at Effect. If what is perceived to be compassion and forgiveness appears at Cause, forgiveness and compassion appear at Effect. And so on.

Consider creative processing (mockup processing).

How do you, should you, would you perceive Jesus? Mock him up standing in the room. Send him some "Hello's" and "Okays" to establish communication.

Then you can converse, ask questions, have him jump up and down, or he request or require the same of you. No limitations.

I suspect that creative processing fell out of use because it works so damn fast. That's not good for the GI.

Prayer? That's just Solo Creative Processing.

Where to earn your next buck? More creative processing through the physical universe.

How and where to steal a buck? More creative processing.

Brainstorming? That's group creative processing.

The next time you see someone praying see if you can guess at who or what they are praying to and the effectiveness of the process.

Very interesting!

In LRH theory creative processing is a limited process. But I suspect
that doing lots of creative processing on different areas is not limited. In
other words no over run.

I saw a TV magician or some such do creative processing live on TV to great results with of course newbies, and it was VERY quick. he didn't
call it creative processing or scientology and probably got it from Magick.

The clear cog is in a sense a creative process.

I've often thought, as you indicate here, that I go through life
continually doing creative processing as needs arise. Often mocking up different ways something can be, different solutions. Blows mass and charge.

Puts one at cause.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
The pc centric cycle of communication. No eval, no inval. Who but a narcissist seeking a solution to himself would have demanded such a format? No one before hubbard that I know of.

Carl Rogers came up with it before Hubbard, and probably is where he stole it from.

Excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person-centered_therapy:
Person-centered therapy (PCT) is also known as person-centered psychotherapy, client-centered therapy and Rogerian psychotherapy. PCT is a form of talk-psychotherapy developed by psychologist Carl Rogers in the 1940s and 1950s. It's one of the most widely used models in mental health and psychotherapy. In this technique, therapists create a comfortable, non-judgmental environment by demonstrating congruence (genuineness), empathy, and unconditional positive regard toward their patients while using a non-directive approach. This aids patients in finding their own solutions to their problems.​
Rogerian therapy is one of my (free) RoboCounsellor modules. I've made it as close to the original as I can get it within the Robot counselling paradigm. It works fairly well, but like the version using a more expensive live practitioner it works better on relatively heavily charged items.

Paul
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Do you have any idea why LRH discontinued it?

Very interesting!

In LRH theory creative processing is a limited process. But I suspect
that doing lots of creative processing on different areas is not limited. In
other words no over run.

I saw a TV magician or some such do creative processing live on TV to great results with of course newbies, and it was VERY quick. he didn't
call it creative processing or scientology and probably got it from Magick.

The clear cog is in a sense a creative process.

I've often thought, as you indicate here, that I go through life
continually doing creative processing as needs arise. Often mocking up different ways something can be, different solutions. Blows mass and charge.

Puts one at cause.

In his tapes from around 1953, LRH is all raves about Creative Processing. It seems to be the direction he is going. It can do in minutes what takes hours and hours of engram runing to achieve. Suddenly Creative Processing is totally dropped and he moves into something else, more complicated.

He gives a short explanation of why he dropped it but the reason is very vague, so much so that I have no idea of the reason except that the reason had to do with a technical point. It has been suggested that he really dropped it because it hurt the Gross Income stat too much by quickly solving cases. Back as early as 1953, I don't believe his number one interest was Gross Income. He seemed to want to make the tech work more than anything else. If he had a process which could quickly and safely handle cases, I believe he would have developed it and promoted it. He could have used that to parade in front of Psychiatrists and the Mental Health community and gain the recognition he so urgently sought from them. Once he was recognized as a genius, he probably felt the money would start rolling in.

Terril, do you have any idea why LRH dropped Creative Processing almost over night? Does anyone else have any idea?
Lakey
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Back At Ya, Facey

[...]

When I was growing up I shared a bedroom with my older brother who was going to college. He had a job and when he got home at night he would throw the change in his pocket into a wooden box on his dresser. It was a large box and over time there was a substantial pile of change in the box. There were some “rich kids” I went to school with that I wanted to impress. I did not have nice cloths…mostly hand-me-downs from my brothers and cousins. I started to pilfer the change from my brother’s change box and spend it after school with these kids…buying hamburgers and malts for them, stuff like that. I was suddenly their big “buddy” and I became “drunk” with being cool…I also became sick at heart and tortured at night. I came to a point where I detested myself so much I stopped stealing my brother’s money, replaced what I thought was what I had spent (from doing yard work for neighbors) and never stole again. I never confessed what I had done until years later…my brother laughed and said he was glad that he was the vehicle for my having looked into my own heart and stopped flinching. He passed away a few years ago and I was with him…he was a beautiful man.

I guess that’s what saddens me most about this era, Adios Apollo, about my time with El Ron. It was an opportunity…we, the Crew, were so willing, ready, able and El Ron did as Hisself always did…flinched. El Ron spent the rest of Hisself’s life pilfering from the change box to be cool in front of the other kids.

Face:)


Your story reminds me of long ago when I collected coins. Those were the days when money was still made of silver, when you could still find stuff in circulation from the 1900s '10s, and '20s.

My collection started when my dad promised me $10 for every home run I hit that year. It was Little League. He did not think I would hit any. I hit six. He paid me the first $10 after I hounded him for it. When no amount of hounding would secure my remaining $50 I negotiated for his coin collection to settle the deal. That's how I got started.

To add to the collection I would round up soda bottles for their return value. I would run errands for my grandmother. She paid me 2-cents to run to the store. Wherever or however, I managed to add to the collection. The blue folders with slots for each issue of, say, quarters began to get comparatively heavy.

I would examine my collection frequently. It got hefty. What a great havingness! One day I noticed an empty slot where I thought there should have been a coin. Well, maybe I was mistaken. The next day another missing slot. It did not occur to me that anyone would have the audacity to take something that did not belong to them.

I went for a ride on my bike to consider the matter. Down the street I found my little brother with friends. They were enjoying candy bars. He said that the friends had money and they gave him one. Okay -- I guess.

Then over a few days a massive number of coins were missing, quarters being the favored denomination, but also nickels and dimes. This could mean only one thing. I jumped on my bike to find my little brother. I intended to confront him, get him to 'fess up, and/or beat his ass.

When I found him he and his friends were enjoying ice-creams, sodas, and candy. This was the stuff that only "big money" could buy. I was outraged! I knew then what had been going on.

I went to my dad for justice, but he wasn't home yet. I stewed. When dad got home he listened to what I had to say. I wanted punishment. I wanted dad to rip my brother's head off, to beat him within an inch of his life, to...

Dad's solution was to listen, then giving me the money for the bike ride to the store, he bought us a gallon of ice-cream to share and let us cool off. Ice-cream was never so disinteresting and tasteless. I even fed some to the dog. That's how I felt about this peace gesture. Yes, I did eventually cool off, but know this: ice-cream is just a rud, a shift of attention. It is not the process.

Eventually I let the whole thing go, the event (except for this retelling), and the coin collection. I sold the coins that were of value to serious collectors. I spent the rest on a baseball glove. I even conned my little brother out of a silver dollar that our great grandmother gave to us, one each, on her deathbed. I sold those, too. They are the only pieces I wish I still had.

As for the process of justice and retribution? I must have EP'd somewhere along the way. For a long time I have felt that my little brother is one of the finer beings in the universe, salt-of-the-earth. Married forever, with family, self-employed, successful.

Life goes on.

As for old Ronnie, I am still running that process.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
In his tapes from around 1953, LRH is all raves about Creative Processing. It seems to be the direction he is going. It can do in minutes what takes hours and hours of engram runing to achieve. Suddenly Creative Processing is totally dropped and he moves into something else, more complicated.

He gives a short explanation of why he dropped it but the reason is very vague, so much so that I have no idea of the reason except that the reason had to do with a technical point. It has been suggested that he really dropped it because it hurt the Gross Income stat too much by quickly solving cases. Back as early as 1953, I don't believe his number one interest was Gross Income. He seemed to want to make the tech work more than anything else. If he had a process which could quickly and safely handle cases, I believe he would have developed it and promoted it. He could have used that to parade in front of Psychiatrists and the Mental Health community and gain the recognition he so urgently sought from them. Once he was recognized as a genius, he probably felt the money would start rolling in.

Terril, do you have any idea why LRH dropped Creative Processing almost over night? Does anyone else have any idea?
Lakey
There's a thread on it here http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=15295
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
In his tapes from around 1953, LRH is all raves about Creative Processing. It seems to be the direction he is going. It can do in minutes what takes hours and hours of engram runing to achieve. Suddenly Creative Processing is totally dropped and he moves into something else, more complicated.

He gives a short explanation of why he dropped it but the reason is very vague, so much so that I have no idea of the reason except that the reason had to do with a technical point. It has been suggested that he really dropped it because it hurt the Gross Income stat too much by quickly solving cases. Back as early as 1953, I don't believe his number one interest was Gross Income. He seemed to want to make the tech work more than anything else. If he had a process which could quickly and safely handle cases, I believe he would have developed it and promoted it. He could have used that to parade in front of Psychiatrists and the Mental Health community and gain the recognition he so urgently sought from them. Once he was recognized as a genius, he probably felt the money would start rolling in.

Terril, do you have any idea why LRH dropped Creative Processing almost over night? Does anyone else have any idea?
Lakey


In scio-world is is called Step 6 phenomena. That is the tendency of some pc's to make more mental mass when doing mock-up or creative processes.

I believe there is validity to the observation. I do not believe it is the reason why creative processing was dropped.

All processes are mockup processes. There is nothing a being can do except mockup or cease to mockup. R3R is a mockup process. As with many good processes, you get the pc to run it by going in the back door because going in the front door meets with too much resistance. The worst kind of resistance is analytical. There are many reasons why auditing isn't supposed to work, why it is best to keep one's mouth shut, why a real man doesn't need counsel, why...

If the pc were told to mock up a reason or explanation for this or that condition he might not take it seriously -- such childish imaginings. By framing the mockups as recall of actual track events the auditor backdoors the pc into doing what he should be able to do anyway, mock up on a self-determined basis.

What gets run in during that process of running something out is the mistaken belief in one's own imagination, that events are real because "I ran that," that the pc has a time track like a motion picture film, etc.
 
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