The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[afaceinthecrowd]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

BTW, Cattle are raised pretty much throughout all of Texas with the exception of Big Bend National Park. The Panhandle and Red River Valley cattle regions were 100-200 trail miles closer to Wyoming than to Mexico.

Most of the cattle in Texas in the latter 1,800's were Longhorns which is a mixed breed from the original Spanish Criolla cattle and British cattle that were brought in by the early American/European immigrants. Longhorns are highly fertile with a live birth rate of 99+%, highly adaptable, very tough, live long, good temperament and have very strong immune systems. During times of drought they could survive off of prickly pear cactus (with the thorns singed off) and mesquite beans (the Mesquite "tree" is actually a legume) and nothing else. Their climatic tolerance range is the greatest of all domestic cattle breeds.

However their size, growth characteristics and lack carcass primal cut size, marbling fat deposition and yields makes them undesirable for the production of the type and qualities of the beef desired by the modern consumer.

Oh, and by the way, they really know how to use them horns of theirs' which served them well in the olden days!

The Great American Cowboy and Cowboy Ways sprang from and were fostered by the Northern Mexico Vaquero's.

I know all Y'all were just itchin' to hear all that.

Face

PS: The Longhorn's coloring of burnt orange and white are the school colors of the University of Texas.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I want to know about driving cattle from Hawaii to California. Crossing that big stream must have been a real challenge.

This is a "Morning in America" style ad. (famous Reagan 1984 campaign ad) I like it. I'm a vegetarian, raised with killing and butchering chickens, pigs, deer, and cattle. It's in my blood.


[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/McDonaldsUS?v=8sjPnAYwdNI&feature=pyv&ad=21051270932&kw=george%20strait[/video]

It took big balls and long snorkels.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I want to know about driving cattle from Hawaii to California. Crossing that big stream must have been a real challenge.

This is a "Morning in America" style ad. (famous Reagan 1984 campaign ad) I like it. I'm a vegetarian, raised with killing and butchering chickens, pigs, deer, and cattle. It's in my blood.


[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/McDonaldsUS?v=8sjPnAYwdNI&feature=pyv&ad=21051270932&kw=george%20strait[/video]

Do you remember the restaurant chain called Cattlemans' Wharf? There were several scattered around Southern California, one right on Katella Ave. across from Disneyland.

Well, the owner of that restaurant chain was the great grandson of the man who engineered the first cattle drive from Hawaii to California. The tech is all written up and stored in vaults and it is patented. The name Cattlemans' wharf was selected for that restaurant chain to honor those early cattleman who forded cattle from Hawaii to California!
Lakey

PS: on typing "their" for "there", I type pretty fast on automatic and there seems to be a circuit action to write their. After I'm done, I go back, edit and change a lot of theirs to theres but a few often don't get picked up in the edit. So their!

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

BTW, Cattle are raised pretty much throughout all of Texas with the exception of Big Bend National Park. The Panhandle and Red River Valley cattle regions were 100-200 trail miles closer to Wyoming than to Mexico.

Most of the cattle in Texas in the latter 1,800's were Longhorns which is a mixed breed from the original Spanish Criolla cattle and British cattle that were brought in by the early American/European immigrants. Longhorns are highly fertile with a live birth rate of 99+%, highly adaptable, very tough, live long, good temperament and have very strong immune systems. During times of drought they could survive off of prickly pear cactus (with the thorns singed off) and mesquite beans (the Mesquite "tree" is actually a legume) and nothing else. Their climatic tolerance range is the greatest of all domestic cattle breeds.

However their size, growth characteristics and lack carcass primal cut size, marbling fat deposition and yields makes them undesirable for the production of the type and qualities of the beef desired by the modern consumer.

Oh, and by the way, they really know how to use them horns of theirs' which served them well in the olden days!

The Great American Cowboy and Cowboy Ways sprang from and were fostered by the Northern Mexico Vaquero's.

I know all Y'all were just itchin' to hear all that.

Face

PS: The Longhorn's coloring of burnt orange and white are the school colors of the University of Texas.

Thanks Face, this is really interesting! I had an additional question. Since you are saying that the Spanish type of cattle were later breeded with cattle brought over from England to get the Longhorn breed, when and where was this first done.

If the original cattle herds in North America were in Northern Mexico, it would seem that they would have been the Spanish breed of cattle. When the U.S. cattle industry started up did they just go with the Spanish breed or did they breed the Longhorns first. How long does it take to develop a new breed such as the Longhorns and get them to be the predominant breed?

Texas was a separate country for a while. Do you know if their cattle industry started when they were part of Mexico, when they were an independent country or only after they joined the USA. A lot of things which are being said fall into place if you consider that Texas was part of Mexico up to 1846. Northern Mexico was Texas at that time and if Northern Mexico had lots of herds of cattle, then when the USA took over Texas, the cattle were already there in sizeable numbers, albeit they must have been the Spanish breed.

When Kansas became a state in 1867 and the cattle drives started to the rail centers in Kansas and beyond, it seems as if the Longhorn breed was already dominant. That would seem to indicate that the transition from the Spanish breed to the Longhorn took place in the 21 years between 1846, when Texas joined the Union and 1867 when the great cattle drives started.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey,

Let me clarify several things.

For some reason I thought you meant driving cattle from California to Idaho. That never happened. Seedstock was originally herded into Idaho from Washington, Oregon and Wyoming but it was not a Cattle Drive to Market. Some Texas cattle over the years was herded up to Nebraska, Wyoming and even Montana as Seedstock and later some of the herds developed from that Seedstock provided some of the Idaho Seedstock.

All of the original cattle in Texas came from northern Mexico where there were huge cattle ranches. Up until the latter 1800’s cattle moved back and forth across the Texas/Mexico the border all the time and to this day, some Mexican Cattle are trucked and fed in US Feedlots and US beef is exported to Mexico.


Face

Interesting Face, I don't know why you thought that I was talking about driving the herd from California to Idaho. I merely played the song, "Get along little doggies". They mention only three places - They say the doggies mother's were born "down in Texas", then they frequently mention that they are driving the cattle to Wyoming. In one stanza they mention getting the doggies ready for Idaho by feeding the prickly peared choya. California did not get any mention in that song.

Its good to hear that the cattle are being moved between the US and Mexico all the time. The section you wrote on "seedstock" was also very helpful. Thanks for all the info which you have provided!!!
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

The probable reason, dear Lakey, is that grow and Idaho rhyme . . . it is a song, after all!

And while Buffalo rhymes, there's too many syllables in it . . . . 'twould screw with the rhythm and beat of the song

R

Eh...Maybe that's the reason, it's possible. I count 3 syllables in Buffalo, buff-a-lo and 3 in Idaho, I-da-ho. The rhythm and beat wouldn't be screwed with in the least. Probably Idaho is preferred over Buffalo because Idaho is a Western destination and the song is about the West .

The lyric they are trying to rhyme keys off of the word "grow". It seems as if Idaho is the only Western destination which rhymes. There is also Ohio, also 3 syllables but that is not in the West, only the midwest. The other destination choices seem to be Montana and Nebraska, which end in "a" and Wyoming ending in "ing". All are 3 syllables and could be used but it is hard to change the lyrics to accomodate those destinations.

"Your mother was raised way down in Texas where the Jimson weed and sand burrs grow." The best I could come up with was, "Your mother was raised way down in Texas, a land teeming with choya, I'll raise you up on prickly peared choya and get you ready for Montana."

Not too bad but it doesn't roll off the tongue as good as the original so you are probably right.
Lakey

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Since you are saying that the Spanish type of cattle were later breeded with cattle brought over from England to get the Longhorn breed, when and where was this first done.

The Spanish cattle came over to Mexico in the 1600’s and into Texas in the 1700's. British cattle (Hereford and Shorthorn) came into Eastern US in the latter 1700’s and early 1800’s (Angus) and they were rapidly spread into the Southeast and Eastern Midwest. Some of those cattle were brought into Texas and, along with some cattle that came with European immigrant population, some were crossbred with the native Spanish cattle. This started about 1820 and by 1830 there was a large, established population of longhorns.

If the original cattle herds in North America were in Northern Mexico, it would seem that they would have been the Spanish breed of cattle. When the U.S. cattle industry started up did they just go with the Spanish breed or did they breed the Longhorns first. How long does it take to develop a new breed such as the Longhorns and get them to be the predominant breed?

Like I said earlier, the cattle in Northern Mexico and Texas were Spanish Criolla cattle. The US cattle industry started in local geographic “pockets” with different breeds but the big growth started after the Civil War s as the Bison herds were being decimated.

Early on in that period it was heavily composed of Longhorns but over time diversified into other breeds. Shorthorns were a very big bread in the East and Midwest as they were a dual purpose breed—milk and meat. Herefords were predominant in the Northwest . It is only over the last 60 years or so that Angus have become one of the dominant beef breeds as they produce better meat on the “Hot” fattening diet (mostly corn) that was widely adopted after WW II to produce juicier more tender beef and utilize the overproduction of corn in the US for the production of high quality meat protein.

The length of time that it takes to develop a breed depends upon expertise, what your desired end result is, resources and number of other breeds that will required in the "recipe" to develop that breed. Usually, anywhere from 5 or 6 years on the short side to 10-12 years on the long side.

Texas was a separate country for a while. Do you know if their cattle industry started when they were part of Mexico, when they were an independent country or only after they joined the USA. A lot of things which are being said fall into place if you consider that Texas was part of Mexico up to 1846. Northern Mexico was Texas at that time and if Northern Mexico had lots of herds of cattle, then when the USA took over Texas, the cattle were already there in sizeable numbers, albeit they must have been the Spanish breed.

The cattle industry in Texas was well established by the time of the Texas War of Independence. Its growth was actually one of the things that brought about the Revolt. It was predominantly in the hands of immigrants and brought wealth and power and the Anglo's grew to outnumber 3-1 the native Mexicans. Longhorns outnumbered Spanish cattle in Texas at the time of the revolution.

When Kansas became a state in 1867 and the cattle drives started to the rail centers in Kansas and beyond, it seems as if the Longhorn breed was already dominant. That would seem to indicate that the transition from the Spanish breed to the Longhorn took place in the 21 years between 1846, when Texas joined the Union and 1867 when the great cattle drives started.

During the Civil War there was a shortage of able bodied men in Texas and the Longhorn herds, and all cattle breed hers, exploded and large numbers were unbranded and wandering all over the place. The declining Bison herds, the increasing demand for Bovine meat in the East, the expanding population in the upper Midwest , the Transcontinental Railroad with Chicago as the central hub coupled with the massive cattle herds and oversupply of cattle in Texas to create a “Perfect Storm” for the Texas Cattle Industry. And, as they say, the rest is History.

I appreciate Y’all’s interest.

Face

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

The Spanish cattle came over to Mexico in the 1600’s and into Texas in the 1700's. British cattle (Hereford and Shorthorn) came into Eastern US in the latter 1700’s and early 1800’s (Angus) and they were rapidly spread into the Southeast and Eastern Midwest. Some of those cattle were brought into Texas and, along with some cattle that came with European immigrant population, some were crossbred with the native Spanish cattle. This started about 1820 and by 1830 there was a large, established population of longhorns.



Like I said earlier, the cattle in Northern Mexico and Texas were Spanish Criolla cattle. The US cattle industry started in local geographic “pockets” with different breeds but the big growth started after the Civil War s as the Bison herds were being decimated.

Early on in that period it was heavily composed of Longhorns but over time diversified into other breeds. Shorthorns were a very big bread in the East and Midwest as they were a dual purpose breed—milk and meat. Herefords were predominant in the Northwest . It is only over the last 60 years or so that Angus have become one of the dominant beef breeds as they produce better meat on the “Hot” fattening diet (mostly corn) that was widely adopted after WW II to produce juicier more tender beef and utilize the overproduction of corn in the US for the production of high quality meat protein.

The length of time that it takes to develop a breed depends upon expertise, what your desired end result is, resources and number of other breeds that will required in the "recipe" to develop that breed. Usually, anywhere from 5 or 6 years on the short side to 10-12 years on the long side.



The cattle industry in Texas was well established by the time of the Texas War of Independence. Its growth was actually one of the things that brought about the Revolt. It was predominantly in the hands of immigrants and brought wealth and power and the Anglo's grew to outnumber 3-1 the native Mexicans. Longhorns outnumbered Spanish cattle in Texas at the time of the revolution.



During the Civil War there was a shortage of able bodied men in Texas and the Longhorn herds, and all cattle breed hers, exploded and large numbers were unbranded and wandering all over the place. The declining Bison herds, the increasing demand for Bovine meat in the East, the expanding population in the upper Midwest , the Transcontinental Railroad with Chicago as the central hub coupled with the massive cattle herds and oversupply of cattle in Texas to create a “Perfect Storm” for the Texas Cattle Industry. And, as they say, the rest is History.

I appreciate Y’all’s interest.

Face

Thank you very very much!!! I really find this subject extremely interesting! It would be fun to take a class in Texas history. However, for the time being, you have covered all the key areas which I asked about. I had virtually no knowledge in this area at all. In LA City schools we studied California history but never really touched on Texas or the cattle industry. Probably like many other citizens, my only exposure was from the cowboy movies and songs sung by Tex Ritter.
Lakey

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Interesting Face, I don't know why you thought that I was talking about driving the herd from California to Idaho. I merely played the song, "Get along little doggies". They mention only three places - They say the doggies mother's were born "down in Texas", then they frequently mention that they are driving the cattle to Wyoming. In one stanza they mention getting the doggies ready for Idaho by feeding the prickly peared choya. California did not get any mention in that song.

Its good to hear that the cattle are being moved between the US and Mexico all the time. The section you wrote on "seedstock" was also very helpful. Thanks for all the info which you have provided!!!
Lakey

Lakey,

Like I said before, I did not listen to the song until after my first couple of posts. The way your first post re: the song appeared to me at the time I read it...it was late in the day and my brain was already starting its nightly mini-crash, it appeared to me that you were recalling some of the things you were saying. The "did something to shorten their tails" made no sense and I said something. For some reason, due to my problems reading and writing off and on during the day, I somehow thought you were recalling driving cattle up to Idaho from California.

As far as the Texas cattle going to Idaho, I did some looking and the Idaho cattle herds...which had been built up from Seedstock from Oregon and Washington...were decimated by some sever winters around 1867-68 and the Oregon/Washington herds were hit fairly hard, too.

The mining industry was booming then and there was a desperate need for new Seedstock and an interim beef supply. A large amount of the cattle that was brought in across Wyoming had been driven up into the Midwest from Texas. I did not know this.

Starting in the late 1870's and for about 6 years there were some drives of around 2,000 head made from Texas to Wyoming and Montana to establish herds there--which I knew--and fatten cattle for beef allotments to the now "Ward of the State" Plains Indians--which I did not know were, for awhile, partly Texas cattle.

There were already cattle herds established at this time in Montana and Wyoming as well, however, the seizing of the Native American,s lush pasture land there meant the sustainable breeding cattle numbers could overnight increase by times multiple.

So, the Lyrics to the song appear to be a composite of things that happened over that small window in time.

BTW, the big "Railhead Drives" had as many as 15,000 head...man, that's a lot of cattle!

Face

 

[lkwdblds]

What if Mexico had reained the American Southwest?

I often wonder what would have happened if Mexico had retained control of the Great South West. I feet that the U.S. has been a good custodian over those lands for over a 100 years. There was a form of Imperialism which took place where the U.S. trampled over the territorial rights of the Mexicans and the Indians and I certainly do not think that this is anything to be proud of but in developing the land itself, and building up the infrastructure, I would say that the U.S. did a good job. Put it this way, neither the Spaniards nor the Mexicans would have developed it any better. This can be seen first hand by observing how those two countries did develop their homelands.

The Indians are another story. They would have kept the lands much more pristine, honored the bison, etc. but not much infrastructure would have developed. There are many who would say that this is vastly better than how the U.S. developed it and many who would disagree.

Starting in the 1970's the scales started to tip in favor of the Mexicans and the Indians. Mexican were immigrating here heavily, both legally and illegally. Once here they began living off of the infrastructure which the U.S. had built up which meant more opportunity and a better lifestyle for tens of millions of Mexican citizens, many of whom are now U.S. citizens. The Indians began being honored more as native Americans and got a cash cow by being allowed to develop gambling casinos on their lands. Those two groups were getting some significant payback from the U.S. in exchange for the lands which the U.S. took from them.

Move up to presnt time and it appears the U.S. is going bankrupt and our whole system may be falling apart. Even with that happening, we are still better off as a nation than either Mexico or Spain.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this subject?
Lakey

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Oh...and one last thing...

The Republic of Texas included half of present day New Mexico, a slice of present day Oklahoma, about a third of Colorado including the western slope of the Rocky's extending about 50 miles into southern Wyoming covering nearly 400,000...making The Republic of Texas the size of California, Arizona and Nevada combined. sqm.

During the "deal-making" with Uncle Sam to be admitted to the Union, the US wanted to set the Borders smaller than present day Texas and to take the other land. After some serious negotiating with them damn Yankees, the Texicans backed them off and settled for the present day borders but with a number of interesting concessions...one of which is that the Texas State Flag is the only State Flag that can be flown at the same height as the US Flag...and that's a fact, Jack.

Face

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Oh...and one last thing...

The Republic of Texas included half of present day New Mexico, a slice of present day Oklahoma, about a third of Colorado including the western slope of the Rocky's extending about 50 miles into southern Wyoming covering nearly 400,000...making The Republic of Texas the size of California, Arizona and Nevada combined. sqm.

During the "deal-making" with Uncle Sam to be admitted to the Union, the US wanted to set the Borders smaller than present day Texas and to take the other land. After some serious negotiating with them damn Yankees, the Texicans backed them off and settled for the present day borders but with a number of interesting concessions...one of which is that the Texas State Flag is the only State Flag that can be flown at the same height as the US Flag...and that's a fact, Jack.

Face

Thanks for the further info. I knew Texas was much bigger at one time but did not know the rest of the story. Its always nice to learn added data!

Isn't it true that when Texas entered the Union, they had the option to split into up to 5 States instead of one State? The last time I heard about this topic, maybe in the 50's or 60's, they still had that option. Do you know if that option is still available to them.

If they split into 5 states they would have a total of 10 U.S. Senators, a pick up of 8 senators. Being a state which is currently voting Republican more than Democrat, the Democrats would probably do everything in there power to fight Texas dividing into more than one state.

Here is a link to the map of the Republic of Texas:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...26F3170134E0BB971D14986957E8E59153923&first=0

Now there is a State that is a State. The North to South length is probably about the same is from San Diego up to Vancouver.
Lakey

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Oh...and one last thing...

...

After some serious negotiating with them damn Yankees, the Texicans backed them off and settled for the present day borders but with a number of interesting concessions...one of which is that the Texas State Flag is the only State Flag that can be flown at the same height as the US Flag...and that's a fact, Jack.

Face

You sound like my cousins, Face.


Mark A. Baker
p.s.

 

[Ted]

Where the Walker runs down...

Lakey,

Like I said before, I did not listen to the song until after my first couple of posts. The way your first post re: the song appeared to me at the time I read it...it was late in the day and my brain was already starting its nightly mini-crash, it appeared to me that you were recalling some of the things you were saying. The "did something to shorten their tails" made no sense and I said something. For some reason, due to my problems reading and writing off and on during the day, I somehow thought you were recalling driving cattle up to Idaho from California.

As far as the Texas cattle going to Idaho, I did some looking and the Idaho cattle herds...which had been built up from Seedstock from Oregon and Washington...were decimated by some sever winters around 1867-68 and the Oregon/Washington herds were hit fairly hard, too.

The mining industry was booming then and there was a desperate need for new Seedstock and an interim beef supply. A large amount of the cattle that was brought in across Wyoming had been driven up into the Midwest from Texas. I did not know this.

Starting in the late 1870's and for about 6 years there were some drives of around 2,000 head made from Texas to Wyoming and Montana to establish herds there--which I knew--and fatten cattle for beef allotments to the now "Ward of the State" Plains Indians--which I did not know were, for awhile, partly Texas cattle.

There were already cattle herds established at this time in Montana and Wyoming as well, however, the seizing of the Native American,s lush pasture land there meant the sustainable breeding cattle numbers could overnight increase by times multiple.

So, the Lyrics to the song appear to be a composite of things that happened over that small window in time.

BTW, the big "Railhead Drives" had as many as 15,000 head...man, that's a lot of cattle!

Face

As are many a folk tune, a mixture of fact and fiction with enough poetic license to keep the rhythm and interest up.

This one is a fictitious tale crafted by Tom Campbell and Steve Gillette, but through the story line and references to actual places it sounds like a true story. Add the references to epic circumstances and archetypes of true love, a handsome young man, a beautiful maiden, the pain of loss, and this song will live on until these things no longer matter to human beings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDzPq7os1p8&feature=related

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Thanks for the further info. I knew Texas was much bigger at one time but did not know the rest of the story. Its always nice to learn added data!

Isn't it true that when Texas entered the Union, they had the option to split into up to 5 States instead of one State? The last time I heard about this topic, maybe in the 50's or 60's, they still had that option. Do you know if that option is still available to them.

If they split into 5 states they would have a total of 10 U.S. Senators, a pick up of 8 senators. Being a state which is currently voting Republican more than Democrat, the Democrats would probably do everything in there power to fight Texas dividing into more than one state.

Here is a link to the map of the Republic of Texas:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...26F3170134E0BB971D14986957E8E59153923&first=0

Now there is a State that is a State. The North to South length is probably about the same is from San Diego up to Vancouver.
Lakey

The five state thing was and is part of the "Deal" as were Rio Grande Water Rights that still have New Mexico and Colorado PO'd. It's over 900 Highway miles from north to south and east to west. When your drive from Austin to LA, when you get to the Texas/New Mexico Border your over half way there.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

You sound like my cousins, Face.


Mark A. Baker
p.s.

Well then he must be a damn fine Folks!!

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

One more Texas factoid and then I gonna try real hard to shut up for awhile.


In order of % of land in private hands Mississippi is # 50 at 0.36% and Texas is # 49 at 0.49%. Texas has over 240,000 Sqm more land than Mississippi.

 

[FoTi]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

The probable reason, dear Lakey, is that grow and Idaho rhyme . . . it is a song, after all!

And while Buffalo rhymes, there's too many syllables in it . . . . 'twould screw with the rhythm and beat of the song

R

Don't Idaho and buffalo have the same number of syllables....3 each?

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Sons of the Pioneers

[video=youtube;6shVq0ngxNU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6shVq0ngxNU[/video]

[video=youtube;h117QShzJxA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h117QShzJxA&feature=related[/video]

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Don't Idaho and buffalo have the same number of syllables....3 each?

Good eye FoTi! I already caught Roger's error and pointed it out to him yesterday on my post 14046.

Also, Buffalo, being in New York state would not be suitable for use in a Cowboy song about cattle drives out West. That didn't make sense to me either.
Lakey