The State of Clear

[uniquemand]

Personally I consider that most of the parallels between Buddhism & the subject of scientology arise because they actually have similar objectives.


Mark A. Baker

You mean the objective of Buddhism is also to make money, make more money, and make others make more money? I had no idea.

Okay, that said, I'll say that I agree with you that any similarities are likely due to similar goals (in that area). Since Hubbard was a complex character, I will credit him with having humanistic goals (directly in conflict with his goals to dominate and control them all to make money for him, and to help him smash his name into history). The parts of the tech that are evocative of Buddhist method or ideas are probably ALSO due to him ripping them off, particularly the TRs, which are a form of Dyad meditation which was popular in LA around the time that LRH was knocking about as a "swami"/hypnotist.

 

[degraded being]

I don't get all this stuff about the "parallels" between
Buddhism and Scientology.


Buddhism doesn't have all those "ability" goals like getting "out" of things - the body, the universe. Being "exterior" and "exterior with perception" all of which seem like control goals to me. That ain't part of Buddhism far as I know. And pursuing psychic abilities, as well as exalted states is definitely not encouraged.

 

[Panda Termint]

I don't get all this stuff about the "parallels" between
Buddhism and Scientology.


Buddhism doesn't have all those "ability" goals like getting "out" of things - the body, the universe. Being "exterior" and "exterior with perception" all of which seem like control goals to me. That ain't part of Buddhism far as I know. And pursuing psychic abilities, as well as exalted states is definitely not encouraged.

I agree, there is definitely nothing in scn that even vaguely resembles Buddhism, despite all the PR to the contrary.
The only parallel I see is Hubbard's wishful thinking that one day there might eventually be more statues of him than of Buddha!
Fat chance!
Even his Guardian Angel told him, "You're dreaming, Ron!"
And so it came to pass.
He figured out the only possible solution.
He decided, "I AM Buddha, all those damn statues ARE of me!"
Problem solved.
Case closed.
NOW... let's get back to subject at hand, The State of Clear.

 

[uniquemand]

I don't get all this stuff about the "parallels" between
Buddhism and Scientology.


Buddhism doesn't have all those "ability" goals like getting "out" of things - the body, the universe. Being "exterior" and "exterior with perception" all of which seem like control goals to me. That ain't part of Buddhism far as I know. And pursuing psychic abilities, as well as exalted states is definitely not encouraged.

Native State = off the wheel of karma
OT Powers = siddhis

Aside from that, not much, I agree.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Personally I consider that most of the parallels between Buddhism & the subject of scientology arise because they actually have similar objectives.


Mark A. Baker

I really really think so, too. I've been reading a bit about Buddhism and I see a LOT of parallels and similar objectives.

 

[Martini]

There are numerous stories about various companions of Gautama Siddhartha and their teachings & histories in the various Buddhist traditions. Maitreya, aka Metteya, was according to some of the Mahayana schools one of the early disciples who adopted the "Bodhisattva Vow" and promised to return to "free all beings". These stories are rather like the catholic "lives of the saints" or chinese tales of the Immortals. If interested, go check out the Buddhism section of your local bookstore.


Mark A. Baker

I found this online:

3. Buddhist prophecies. Baha's consider that Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Buddha that in due time another Buddha would come to the world, the Mettaya (Maitreya) Buddha: "In due time, O monks, there will arise in the world an Exalted One named Mettaya, an arahat, fully awakened, full of wisdom and a perfect guide, himself having trodden the path to the very end, with knowledge of the worlds, unsurpassed as an educator, teacher of gods and men, an exalted Buddha, just as in the present period I am now . . . And he will proclaim the teaching that is lovely in its origin, lovely in its progress, and lovely in its consummation . . . He will be the head of an order of many thousand of monks, just as in the present period I am the head of an order of many hundreds" (DN, Mahaparinibbana-Suttana 3:76). Shoghi Effendi specifically identifies Baha'u'llah with the Maitreya Buddha (GPB 95) and as the fifth Buddha (GPB 94).

In Mahayana sources there are many more prophecies relating to the Maitreya Buddha. One of these is that found in the Mahasannipata sutra (Ta-tsi-king, see Cowell et al. 115-6n), in which it is prophesied that the Maitreya Buddha would come after five epochs of five hundred years each from the time of Gautama Buddha. This period of 2,500 years was completed in 1956 C.E. according to the traditional Buddhist calendar. Also of importance from the Baha'i viewpoint is the name of the Mahayana savior figure Amitabha, who is considered to preside over a Pure Land (Sukhavati) to the west of India. Baha'is point out the similarity between this name (which may be translated as Light of the Infinite) and that of Baha'u'llah (which may be translated as Glory or Light of God), who came from a land to the west of India. There is also a parallel between the repetition of the name of Amitabha in many Buddhist Pure Land sects, and the repetition of the Greatest Name (q.v.) in Baha'i prayer (see "Prayer.4.b").

To detail fully the Baha'i interpretation of how the various Buddhist prophecies indicate the coming of Baha'u'llah is impossible in an article of this nature. In brief, it may be stated that the Buddhist prophecy that the Maitreya Buddha will inaugurate an era of universal peace and tranquillity is regarded by Baha'is as having been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah's advent and teachings on world peace.

Moojan Momen

http://bahai-library.com/encyclopedia/buddhism.html


Didn't see much else on the prophecy.

 

[DartSmohen]

I was just wondering if there was an agenda to move this thread off track into another subject. ie Buddism. :confused2:

Dart

 

[Lovesnightsky]

I don't get all this stuff about the "parallels" between
Buddhism and Scientology.


Buddhism doesn't have all those "ability" goals like getting "out" of things - the body, the universe. Being "exterior" and "exterior with perception" all of which seem like control goals to me. That ain't part of Buddhism far as I know. And pursuing psychic abilities, as well as exalted states is definitely not encouraged.

Correct. They are simply side effects and it is well known that if that's what you are after, your trapped and will not achieve buddhahood.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I was just wondering if there was an agenda to move this thread off track into another subject. ie Buddism. :confused2:

Dart

Threads meander and people get off on tangents. This is common on any forum- Scn or otherwise.

 

[uniquemand]

I was just wondering if there was an agenda to move this thread off track into another subject. ie Buddism. :confused2:

Dart

You know, Dart, that the state of non-attachment sought after in Buddhism would be almost identical, if not completely identical to the State of Clear? That's how I see it. It's not my agenda to move off the topic of the State of Clear, though. I do see the two as related.

 

[Lovesnightsky]

You know, Dart, that the state of non-attachment sought after in Buddhism would be almost identical, if not completely identical to the State of Clear? That's how I see it. It's not my agenda to move off the topic of the State of Clear, though. I do see the two as related.

No. That's not quite right.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I was just wondering if there was an agenda to move this thread off track into another subject. ie Buddism. :confused2:

Dart

Not on my part, Dart, however are you absolutely CERTAIN that would necessarily constitute being "off track"?


Mark A. Baker

 

[uniquemand]

No. That's not quite right.

Okay, that was sufficiently cryptic as to leave me wondering what you mean. Not quite right how? Clear means you have nothing in restimulation, and optimally, nothing to restimulate: you aren't attached to reactivity. How is this different from being a bodhi?

 

[Voltaire's Child]

You know, Dart, that the state of non-attachment sought after in Buddhism would be almost identical, if not completely identical to the State of Clear? That's how I see it. It's not my agenda to move off the topic of the State of Clear, though. I do see the two as related.

As is the goal to maintain/keep a "cool heart" and much of what they say about anger and the illusory nature of the everyday world.

 

[degraded being]

There is a universal desire to deal with suffering.

How many religions, cults, belief systems are based on that universal desire? Nearly all of them? Or all of them?

Big deal. We know that already. Even a diehard Christian who believes they may go to "heaven" - it is a "deal" or "negotian" or "pay off" they get for suffering - resisting temptation, following the good path, etc. It is all dealing with suffering. Big deal so scio is like Buddism/Christianity.

Many scios have absolutely no clue about buddhsim and would reject it if offered because it does not try to get them "out".

Clear. Well elron decided that BTs were the problem, and xenu and all that shit remember???? How is that similar to Buddhism? Why don't you tell a buddhist the xenu story and see if it seems familiar to them?

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I've been reading about Buddhism lately and have been struck by the many similarities. In some cases, I think that Buddhism sets the idea forth more clearly (no pun intended) but nonetheless, the similarity's there. This is not surprising since Hubbard was influenced by it, did borrow from it, and even said that he did so.

 

[uniquemand]

The OT III stuff is the most different from Buddhism, for sure. However, there is an underlying aim, which is not being controlled by impulses, not being attached to self (pan-determinism), burning off karma, etc. I see karma as incomplete intentions which haven't been confronted and either ceased from being created, or brought to fruition.

 

[Lovesnightsky]

Okay, that was sufficiently cryptic as to leave me wondering what you mean. Not quite right how? Clear means you have nothing in restimulation, and optimally, nothing to restimulate: you aren't attached to reactivity. How is this different from being a bodhi?

Buddha: "Sanskrit; literally, "awakened one"; a person who has been released from the world of cyclic existence (samsara) and attained liberation from desire, craving, and attachment in nirvana"

Clear: fill in your own definition. It will still have no resemblance to the above. A "Clear" still has case, still has to do the OT levels etc before achieving total freedom - liberation.

 

[Panda Termint]

Some thoughts on this;

To me, The State of Clear, is about marketing.
It's a thing that CofS sells to a gullible public.

Most customers seem to think of Clear as a "better future", an "exalted state of being", a "better me", or simply the ability to be "a correct computer" (no more faulty thinking, hah!).

CofS claim that they own and can deliver the processing technology that will enable customers to achieve these things. They claim that Hubbard created this technology. Neither of these things are true. Their technology and products are faulty and don't come anywhere near to measuring up to the specifications outlined in the originally postulated prospectus, Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health.

People actually pay good money to purchase a faulty product, then give the rest of their time and money in an attempt to make that faulty product work. It never does. Along the way, some people arrive at various way-stations on the road to realising the truth.

The Search for Self is the most ludicrous concept of all, it always makes me think of the poor smuck who puts his glasses on so he can see properly while he's looking for his glasses!

Still, the Search for Self does provide the most interesting drama and is, in fact, the best of Games because it never ends.

Unless, of course, you come to realise who's doing the searching.

If you do that, it's all over for you.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

The OT III stuff is the most different from Buddhism, for sure. However, there is an underlying aim, which is not being controlled by impulses, not being attached to self (pan-determinism), burning off karma, etc. I see karma as incomplete intentions which haven't been confronted and either ceased from being created, or brought to fruition.

Even for that there is similar material in Vajra & traditional tantric practices. It's not exactly the same, but there are definite parallels. I doubt you'ld find many competent practioners of vajrayana who would be particularly "bent out of shape" by the OT level materials. Might even feel like swapping a few "trade practices".

The esoteric traditions of the region certainly refer to plenty of "space opera" on the track, although they phrase it differently. South & Central Asia developed approaches for dealing with past lives, personality fragments & the apparency of disembodied beings waaaaaaaaaaay back.

Mark A. Baker