The State of Clear

[Smilla]

So far, in a mere 60 years, no OT - or even one clear - has ever shown up and demonstrated what was laid out as "clear ".

Can the supporters 'splain dat?

Oh, I'm willing to "believe", I just want to be shown something that can be believed......and proven.

As I said earlier in this thread, the 'states' that were 'apparently' engendered via Scientology, are so far removed from Hubbard's definitions of Clear, that it's pointless to use that term to describe the states engendered.

Neti, Neti.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I know. I'm just playing. I've had this discussion before with Vinaire.

I'm saying that many scientologists actually believe that they will arrive at Brahman-like States thru scientology, they think that "Clear and OT" will get them where they want to go.

The bridge won't take you there, but much of the available auditing does move at least part of the way in that direction. It's especially good at helping and individual to spot and eliminate away false ideas, considerations, & identities.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Panda Termint]

You? TP? Mark? Marty? DM?

OK.

I ain't big on those still stuck in the scio mindset.... and still trying to sell it to others.

Shall I give up the free speech you guys claim to believe in so you get to say what you want with no dissent?

Discussing it doesn't equate to being "stuck in it" or "selling it". Why can't you see that?

 

[Smilla]

I know. I'm just playing. I've had this discussion before with Vinaire.

I'm saying that many scientologists actually believe that they will arrive at Brahman-like States thru scientology, they think that "Clear and OT" will get them where they want to go.

I know. I'm playing too

 

[Smilla]

The bridge won't take you there, but much of the available auditing does move at least part of the way in that direction. It's especially good at helping and individual to spot and eliminate away false ideas, considerations, & identities.


Mark A. Baker

I don't share your enthusiasm for Scientology, but I do respect your right to choose and use whatever you like in your own personal growth. I have my own Spirituality which others might find a bit odd, but it takes me where I want to go, so I'm happy enough with it

 

[Auditor's Toad]

I know. I'm playing too

Don't you dare tell 'em I'm plain playing here for amusement.
If I took some of these people seriously - or sincerely - I be as bat shit shit as they appear to be ( Hey... is that one of those "states"?... can I get an attest ? )

 

[Smilla]

These rapid fire threads are always good fun

Thanks very much.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Discussing it doesn't equate to being "stuck in it" or "selling it". Why can't you see that?

Stuck in? Where have I heard that before?


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I don't share your enthusiasm for Scientology, but I do respect your right to choose and use whatever you like in your own personal growth. I have my own Spirituality which others might find a bit odd, but it takes me where I want to go, so I'm happy enough with it

Good. Personally I'm rather eclectic in my interests. But I make a point of acknowledging all the sources.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Oh, crap, I left my little buddy Vinnie out.
I love it, with him, PT, TP & Mark postings so heabily influenced with swirled in musings of Marty, DM & memories of LRH.

Makes for great fun!

 

[degraded being]

The bridge won't take you there, but much of the available auditing does move at least part of the way in that direction. It's especially good at helping and individual to spot and eliminate away false ideas, considerations, & identities.


Mark A. Baker

helping to construct new false ideas, considerations & identities as it does so?
Which identity decides which other identities should go and which false considerations and ideas are used to work out which other ones are false?
It could be very poilitical "in there".

 

[Smilla]

Bed time for me. I'm re-reading Tom Sawyer, and the teddybear and I are enjoying it very much. Goodnight

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Bed time for me. I'm re-reading Tom Sawyer, and the teddybear and I are enjoying it very much. Goodnight

Please ask Tom Sawyer to attest.........he is sooooooooooooooooo OT !

 

[Mark A. Baker]

helping to construct new false ideas, considerations & identities as it does so? ...

Only if used that way. In my own experience that didn't occur.

The stories of others run a full spectrum from those reporting experiences similar to mine to those reporting auditing sessions being used to routinely indoctrinate. It boils down to who is doing the auditing, how, and why.

Hence, I always recommend that an individual determine for himself with whom he is comfortable working before committing himself to any form of spiritual or mental practice.

... Which identity decides which other identities should go and which false considerations and ideas are used to work out which other ones are false?

The only individual qualified to make that assessment is the pc. Attempts by an auditor, c/s, or other constitutes an express violation of the Auditor's Code, whatever you may have been informed to the contrary.

... It could be very poilitical "in there".

It can be and no doubt for many it was. It doesn't need to be, but when it is it can be quite harmful.


Mark A. Baker

 

[DagwoodGum]

Funny that as I wrapped up Grade IV release I was run on some type of a list whereby it was evaluated to me that I was "au naturale" clear, so I don't have the perspective of "going" clear. However, years after reading all the "OT" levels that had devolved from ability processing to basic exorcism I began to wonder that, if it's true that we're all big pop corn balls of wadded up thetans, how do I know that this processing will do anything but wake them all up and in an agitated state they'll be rioting for a mutiny and I'll be the one who gets run off and my body will walk around appearing to be me but will be as nutty as half the other Scientologists who'd been run on this stuff? Then I'd be clear alright, as in "cleared out." Fortunately the volcanos in the lists didn't even exist 75 million years ago and I doubt that the flight crew would anounce out of courtesy to my bt's which volcano they were being dumped in. In what language were they using at the time? How the hell would a suddenly awakened bt know what the commands mean in modern English??? Just way too many holes in all of this. Like I've said many times, you merely get an endorphin release from the emeter's current, hold the cans while you watch TV and you'll see.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... Like I've said many times, you merely get an endorphin release from the emeter's current, hold the cans while you watch TV and you'll see.

Not a valid test of your 'electrical current hypothesis'. TV is designed to cause reactions. You couldn't distinguish between reactions induced by the tv as opposed to any supposed reactions resulting from stimulation by current flow.

Frankly I regard emeter current as most likely having no effect whatsoever. The level of current involved is minuscule and the same sorts of responses occur when auditing occurs without use of a meter. The latter point in particular pretty much kills any meter centered hypothesis.

The reality is that people experience the biggest shifts in awareness from directly addressing the emotional blocks with which they have been living, perceiving, and potentially altering the way their own fixed ideas have affected them in their lives. The same holds true whatever modality of approach is used as a spiritual practice.

Auditing is just one of the available options. Auditing techniques often have the advantage of producing significant changes fairly rapidly & easily when done well. But they are by no means the only possible approach an individual can take.


Mark A. Baker

 

[mountainpeak]

This is a well commented on subject.

The tech dictionary (as I remember it) describes Clear as "Being at cause over mental matter, energy, space & time".

On looking up "at cause" it said ; Able to greate or uncreate.

The state of Clear occurs when the person realises that they ate mocking it all up.

There is NOTHING in Scn materials that stipulates this can only occur whilst engaged in Scn activities.

This leads, of course, to heresy of olympic proportions.

I have successfully rehabbed many people's state of clear where they were doing a wide range of activities; TM, yoga, presence drills, aikido. It does not matter a jot what the person is doing, it is the fact that they have achieved that realization.

Many cases got "parked" because they were denied the truth of this.

It is funny to watch cult fanatics try and grapple with this datum. they go quite demented in trying to enforce the Scn connection with the state.

I am sure many readers out there can connect with this. If you went clear doing something other than Scn, then acknowledge it.

Enjoy.

Dart,

A belated thank you for this thread. I had several "clear checks" during my time in the CoS and none of them felt entirely satisfactory. I realized a few days ago that I actually went "Clear" per the above definition about 6 months before entering any Scn organization.

 

[Demented LRH]

I hope Emma allows nasty and sexually explicit jokes about LRH to be posted at this website. When I posted my LRH Jokes at Xenu.net I was asked to remove them because the content was improper. Each website has its own rules, and I am not familiar with this website's ruoes.

 

[DagwoodGum]

Not a valid test of your 'electrical current hypothesis'. TV is designed to cause reactions. You couldn't distinguish between reactions induced by the tv as opposed to any supposed reactions resulting from stimulation by current flow.

Frankly I regard emeter current as most likely having no effect whatsoever. The level of current involved is minuscule and the same sorts of responses occur when auditing occurs without use of a meter. The latter point in particular pretty much kills any meter centered hypothesis.

The reality is that people experience the biggest shifts in awareness from directly addressing the emotional blocks with which they have been living, perceiving, and potentially altering the way their own fixed ideas have affected them in their lives. The same holds true whatever modality of approach is used as a spiritual practice.

Auditing is just one of the available options. Auditing techniques often have the advantage of producing significant changes fairly rapidly & easily when done well. But they are by no means the only possible approach an individual can take.


Mark A. Baker

Well that's too bad that you try to spin a factual basis to your denial of science as there has been and continues to be all types of electronic devices designed to facilitate endorphin releases and pain relief. Just Google it sometime as I don't feel responsible for your lack of education in the matter. The emeter is just one of a multitude of such devices and just because you’re willfully ignorant of a market full of similar devices such as Rife machines, orgone generators, Hulda Clark Zappers ad etc., etc. doesn't make you knowledgeable. I.E. Ignorance does not equal knowledge.

Dr. Wilhelm Reich got sent to prison because of FDA charges pertaining to his claims that his orgone generator produced results whereas Hubbard was slick enough to claim the auditing produced the results and NOT the device. All while using a silimar device - now I didn't say identical did I?
In other words, you can't even begin to prove your ridiculous assertion as to the validity of auditing and their end phenomena claims but any meager research can uncover the use of electronic currents to relieve trauma. My chiropractor uses those electro stimulators quite frequently. Where have you been? On a ship?

 

[DagwoodGum]

Not a valid test of your 'electrical current hypothesis'. TV is designed to cause reactions. You couldn't distinguish between reactions induced by the tv as opposed to any supposed reactions resulting from stimulation by current flow.

Frankly I regard emeter current as most likely having no effect whatsoever. The level of current involved is minuscule and the same sorts of responses occur when auditing occurs without use of a meter. The latter point in particular pretty much kills any meter centered hypothesis.

Mark A. Baker

The TV is merely incidental in my post, if I'd said "hold the cans while you read the Bible" you'd rant off an aberrated dissertation about how I've failed to prove that the Bible can cause electrical phenomena. Have you ever been RPF'd? I can see how one could get stuck in the incident...
Hubbard had to claim the emeter had no effect as Wilhelm Reich went to prison just a few years before Dianetics was published for his claims that his version did.
Read Humpty Dumpty while on the meter as Humpty Dumpty will set you free, Humpty creates curative currents that will white wash all trauma past, present and future, LOL. For anything else to be true would force me to eat as much shi* as for you to admit that Scientology doesn't work. The anatomy of a service facsimile, though I hate to use Scientology to explain why Scientology doesn't really work and why some people just can't let it go.