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The State of Clear

Panda Termint said:
OK, whatever floats your boat. :carryon:
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I guess I'm a bad example. Although I was a "Hubbard fan," and very impressed with some of Hubbard's writings, and with the basic discipline and common sense aspects of pre-bait&switch auditing (which I still am), I always made it my business to know. Perhaps that's why I started backing away from Scientology in early 1977, and backed away further when such texts as 'The Way to Happiness' booklet appeared, (I wasn't interested in being told to brush my teeth by L. Ron Hubbard), plus such weird statements as the glaringly manipulative 'From Clear to Eternity', plus the Dianetic Clear frenzy, the ripping apart of the middle Grade Chart (which I still took seriously at the time), and other changes. And buying all of Aleister Crowley's books and reading them, while off-lines, only further pushed me away.
 
The State of Clear is Loaded with Turd Polishing Techniques

I guess I'll have to leave the delusional ones left that believe in clear to their Turd Polishing of it.

Others have said that getting over scientology is like peeling an onion and that is true.

Each layer peeled can also produce real tears.

Some peel slowly and, apparently have no tears to shed. Why? because they claim they didn't see a damn thing wrong ever happen - and that begs the question, does it not, of why then did they ever get "out" of something they saw nothing wrong with ?

jus sayin.
 
Re: The State of Clear is Loaded with Turd Polishing Techniques

Auditor's Toad said:
I guess I'll have to leave the delusional ones left that believe in clear to their Turd Polishing of it.

Others have said that getting over scientology is like peeling an onion and that is true.

Each layer peeled can also produce real tears.

Some peel slowly and, apparently have no tears to shed. Why? because they claim they didn't see a damn thing wrong ever happen - and that begs the question, does it not, of why then did they ever get "out" of something they saw nothing wrong with ?

jus sayin.
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You're imagining things of you think anyone on this thread is saying that, just sayin'.

PS: When you sink to the level of resorting to personal slurs such as "Kool Aid drinker", "Theetie-Wheetie" and "delusional ones" to forward your POV it only lessens the import of what you're trying to communicate in my eyes. Just sayin'.
 
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Veda said:
I guess I'm a bad example. Although I was a "Hubbard fan," and very impressed with some of Hubbard's writings, and with the basic discipline and common sense aspects of pre-bait&switch auditing (which I still am), I always made it my business to know. Perhaps that's why I started backing away from Scientology in early 1977, and backed away further when such texts as 'The Way to Happiness' booklet appeared, (I wasn't interested in being told to brush my teeth by L. Ron Hubbard), plus such weird statements as the glaringly manipulative 'From Clear to Eternity', plus the Dianetic Clear frenzy, the ripping apart of the middle Grade Chart (which I still took seriously at the time), and other changes. And buying all of Aleister Crowley's books and reading them, while off-lines, only further pushed me away.
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The comment of mine which you quoted and are responding to was directed at the Collective We posting as Apocalyptic. Just the same, I say "Good for you, Veda, maybe I wish I'd been as smart as you but I wasn't so, there it is, we have very different experiences of our times in scientology."
 
Winston Smith said:
Didn't he kick the bucket in 1986? He sure sounds dead...
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:lol:

He passed away January 24 1986

months after we had been forced to listen and listen and listen to this album :confused2:

* Edited for date error
 
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[video=youtube;sCky2uzodrM&]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCky2uzodrM&feature=player_profilepage[/video]

Well now, not much of a contribution to the OP's 'State of Clear', but laughter can certainly clear the ol' lungs!

:dance3:

I can certainly say that after many hours of listening and reading Hubbard's spew that I have a pretty clear vision of what its all about, guess I could be like, hm, a new generation of 'clear', because I can clearly see what a sociopathic con-artist can accomplish~ the ruination of so many fine minds.
Nice going dead LRon! So very glad you didn't write another million words! :yes:

Now back to the regularly scheduled program :carryon:
 
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Panda Termint said:
Veda, I said I was unaware of *many* (not all) of the things you referenced. Unfortunately, like most scientologists at the time those few things I was aware of, such as the LSD Sweatout (which I did), MSH going to jail (but not what you describe as "unpersonhood") and the Mayo Declare which I accepted as true, as did most scientologists. I bought the official scio spin on these 3 things. I knew nothing of the other things you listed, I was too busy being a scientologist, mea culpa.

Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing but dial back on the strawman arguments, will ya? Let's try to keep the discussion real, we're all much smarter after the fact.

PS: I also heard the story of Hubbard "causitively discarding his body", I just saw that upon re-reading your post. I had my own thoughts about that at the time but we won't bother with those.
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm embarrassed to admit that I knew of only a few of the listed things that Veda mentioned at the time, and I did the automatic scio thingy that many of us did with the things I did hear about (instantly dismissed them because I knew it was either incorrect information or had been reported incorrectly) ... as a good little robot would.

We all experienced things differently, but we all got out and that's all that really matters.


:yes:​
 
Auditor's Toad said:
Dear theeti-weeti one,

Your post above is an exact repost of a previous post and it was answered in detail your delusion that scn had much of anything to do with any " Spiritual Self " but a whole lot to do with scamming people out of some serious chunks of cash.

I do not consider it worth my while to scroll back and find it for you. You didn't get it then so doubtlessly you would not get it now either.

Go back to drinking the House Kool - Aid as your are sometimes funny while glugging that.

The Toad.

PS - note to others ; Does that repeat his own posts with regularity?
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"Dear theeti-weeti one"
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After re-reading your post I can't help but wonder if $CN can foster a state of "Theeti-Weeti One-ness with all that is Hubtardian"?
 
Panda Termint said:
No, I didn't take it personally. I don't take much of anything personally when it comes to the Internet and Message Boards. I don't post here for my own benefit (although I do enjoy both posting and reading the many worthwhile discussions here), I post here for the benefit of others.
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I vouch for that as I observe it to be true.

Panda is one of our most level headed and considerate posters in my view. And, from what I see, he consistently has posted for the benefit and help to others.

R
 
You know, seeing the way this thread recently degenerated into a slanging match of making others wrong for what they were aware or not aware of at any particular time in their $cn or life history, is rather disappointing to me.

Part of that disappointment is because it is coming from guys I've come to like and respect on ESMB.

In my view, making folks wrong based on what they knew or didn't know; were aware of or not aware of, in their days when "in" is about as silly as running the same process on folks during the wars---WW1, WW2, the cold war and the McCarthy sage here in the US.

We each live in "systems" and $cn was and is its own "system" and parade of information (and denied and lied about information). These systems are always manipulated by their masters . . . the greatest exposed examples of this were carried out by Goebbels and Stalin . . . and yes, I'll put Hubbard up there with them as well.

But in the US and any other "system" we are manipulated by the data and information/disinformation fed us . . . in many respects, this is what has sparked the Occupy Wall Street thing.

Manipulation of the information fed folks is the way the "masters" get us to fight wars, or devote our lives to "clearing the planet" . . . . or you can name your own crusade you're on that is based on information/disinformation.

One should not make another wrong for his information or lack if information. It's the human condition.

A more helpful and civil approach is, to the best of our ability, provide correct information and honor the decency of the other guy on the basis of expecting him to honestly and decently use the information to come to correct decisions and actions.

RogerB
 
This started with Panda Termint's statement that he:

"...was obviously involved in a very different version of scientology, amongst very different people..."

Since Panda Termint has been to a St.Hill, to an AO, and to Flag, and to the Freewinds, it seemed implausible that he was involved in a different Scientology, and an attempt was made to compare versions of Scientology. Now I realize that this was a terrible mistake.:bigcry:
 
:coolwink:
RogerB said:
You know, seeing the way this thread recently degenerated into a slanging match of making others wrong for what they were aware or not aware of at any particular time in their $cn or life history, is rather disappointing to me.

Part of that disappointment is because it is coming from guys I've come to like and respect on ESMB.

In my view, making folks wrong based on what they knew or didn't know; were aware of or not aware of, in their days when "in" is about as silly as running the same process on folks during the wars---WW1, WW2, the cold war and the McCarthy sage here in the US.

We each live in "systems" and $cn was and is its own "system" and parade of information (and denied and lied about information). These systems are always manipulated by their masters . . . the greatest exposed examples of this were carried out by Goebbels and Stalin . . . and yes, I'll put Hubbard up there with them as well.

But in the US and any other "system" we are manipulated by the data and information/disinformation fed us . . . in many respects, this is what has sparked the Occupy Wall Street thing.

Manipulation of the information fed folks is the way the "masters" get us to fight wars, or devote our lives to "clearing the planet" . . . . or you can name your own crusade you're on that is based on information/disinformation.

One should not make another wrong for his information or lack if information. It's the human condition.

A more helpful and civil approach is, to the best of our ability, provide correct information and honor the decency of the other guy on the basis of expecting him to honestly and decently use the information to come to correct decisions and actions.

RogerB
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Sometimes flaps occur between good people, and often because of, as you point out, a simple lack of information. A lack of information has been sponsored by the COS since, from my admittedly limited perspective, the early '70's. But plenty of knowledgeable posters have pointed out that it goes back much, much further. Often though, some posters refuse to acknowledge having flawed or missing information. Doesn’t mean they’re bad people, but they are signing up for a face full of feedback that might be unpleasant when their posts are overly authoritative, but based upon lack of said information. Especially, when, those who know better read their posts. Most of us have been on that end of the stick too! But, getting back to the flaps, they usually dissolve back into the nothingness from which they were born, and in this case the nothingness is a void of flawed and/or missing information. Then people are friends again and, ideally, we all learn something. And, hopefully, everyone comes back to the table and breaks bread rather than wind. Or maybe I’ve now bought into being “theetie-weetie” about the whole thing. Not to make light of the issue whereas I might be accused of being, even worse, “a joker and degrader”. God, wasn’t that an over the top ploy to keep everything deathly serious, thereby keeping everyone mired down in the heavy significance of it all? :coolwink:
 
Veda, Mate, it's tough discussing this subject of $cn . . . particularly for guys whose experience of it spans so long a time. We experienced so much change during our time with it . . .

I know in my case, the change I saw/experienced from 1957 till 1965 and the from '65 till '79 and then from '79 till the blow up of '82-'83 . . . and forget about what has happened since. And in my case even comparing the differences I saw between the ways in which the HASI's and AO's operated in different countries is quite amazing.

Even I have to shake my head at trying to align or reconcile the differences . . . and I lived it . . . and these were/have been very different "versions" and practices if $cn I speak of.

The whole parade has been one of deceit and sleight of hand. The amount of razzle-dazzle the "Old Man" threw at us is quite amazing when I look back at it: and all the time I/we thought it was the result of his brilliant research:duh::duh:

But instead it was razzle-dazzle designed to dazzle and impress and misdirect . . . just like a clever and deceitful magician does: and you/we got sold the falsehood :yes:

Those who got in after the introduction of "standard tech" in '68 have no idea what it was like in the '50's and '60's up till '65 with the advent and imposition of the dazzler's admin and management "tech."

Oppression in management was elevated to an art form of magical proportions from 1965 onwards . . . those not in prior to '65 have no idea how different, and fun, it was prior to the management and ethics tech oppression introduction.

For staffers, after the intro of oppressive management in '65, attention was in essence a 7/24 fixing of attention on your job as staff with all the demands of being training, hatted and keeping stats up along with trying to additionally run a life and eat and pay rent. One did not have time for looking elsewhere for information as any cross reference to the story we were fed on the $cn system's party line.

I well remember, while at Flag for services, hearing and applauding the system's party line regarding MSH's and trial . . . only to later learn the truth: what a shocker!

In retrospect, all I have to say is that Hubbard certainly knew how to trigger the buttons we all have into believing such things as: we can be better; reach for your true potential; and to then misuse and misdirect those basic truths with pursuits such as: this is the only way; we have the only workable system; you have to sacrifice to succeed; being abused and punished and placed under duress is the way to toughness . . . and worst and most insidious of all is his introduced notion that anyone who doesn't agree with us/this evil and doomed, etc.

And that last is worst and most insidious because it separated us from truth and prevented us from receiving the truths needed to unravel the hoax.

Rog
 
Nice post Dag . . . .

You got me thinking. Maybe we could start compiling a list of the buttons the Old Bastard used to deceive, misdirect and manipulate us :ohmy:

We've both mentioned some in our last two posts . . .

And while on this subject of deception, misdirection and manipulation, I have been thinking recently of doing an analysis of this thing of Hubbard making his original claims a la DMSMH of the postulate that a state of Clear can be or was being achieved.

The questions I've personally not resolved are these: was it a notion wrought out of a wish to simply sell an idea/sell a book; was it something that came out of faulty, superficial and incompetent research; was it an idea he stole and then altered in order to achieve his ends of all he expressed in his affirmations?

I dunno as yet . . . but certainly, it was dishonest, incompetent research at a minimum. For certainly, a changed, even improved condition, is not "Clear."

And then, of course, the real question becomes: Clear of what !?!

In retrospect, having been there/done that, I can attest that it (the notion promoted by Hubbard of "true" Clear along with all his other versions of Clear) is a fraudulent proposition. The truth is, what ever one does on "the Bridge," all that is ever accomplished is the removal of SOME of the crap.

There is a looooong way to go to get truly clear and without it all.

Personally, I am finding the ideal can be achieved, but not in or with $cn practices or tech. And it is a long haul: not a stroll across "the Bridge."

Rog
 
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RogerB said:
-snip-

Those who got in after the introduction of "standard tech" in '68 have no idea what it was like in the '50's and '60's up till '65 with the advent and imposition of the dazzler's admin and management "tech."

-snio-
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Good heavens.

The person in question joined in 1974 and was, if I understand correctly, in the Guardian's Office, which was another reason why the "not aware ofs," covering so much, seemed odd.

But now I've repented and ask forgiveness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9qzwjEud9g&feature=related
 
RogerB said:
<snip>
And that last is worst and most insidious because it separated us from truth and prevented us from receiving the truths needed to unravel the hoax.
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RogerB said:
<snip>
I dunno as yet . . . but certainly, it was dishonest, incompetent research at a minimum. For certainly, a changed, even improved condition, is not "Clear."

And then, of course, the real question become: Clear of what !?!

In retrospect, having been there/done that, I can attest that it (the notion promoted by Hubbard of "true" Clear along with all his other versions of Clear) is a fraudulent proposition. The truth is, what ever one does on "the Bridge," all that is ever accomplished is the removal of SOME of the crap.

There is a looooong way to go to get truly clear and without it all.

Personally, I am finding the ideal can be achieved, but not in or with $cn practices or tech. And it is a long haul: not a stroll across "the Bridge."
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Rog as much as I respect you, I see the denigration of this thread differently than you seem to.

There is one poster who needs to put his training and processing achievements along with his "time in " as part of his siggy - and that sort of looks like that bid for " assumed altitude " so many SO tried for with public and some X SO try for here.

But, when someone posts that they are posting for the readers and are posting in favor of "the State of Clear " as per Hubtard that strikes me as rather pro-scientology.

And I sincerely believe any person in entitled to the believe in the religion of their choice.

I also so sincerely believe that "selling" or "trying to sell" that religion is a not a right one is entitled to without comment.

And it may be as simple as that one hasn't been away from the cult long enough to drop the ways of the cult.

Anyway, until there is proof positive that the " State of Clear " exists as per what Hubtard wrote it was ( in any of his 57 variations ) I'll respond to posters who insist on posting for others ( particularly the fence sitters that read here ) that it exists as stated and is worth pursuing.
 
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