Purple Rain
Crusader
Isn't Scientology amazing? Don't you wish you could look cool like that when you are going about your daily harassing and stalking? I think it's definitely worth a few hundred grand to look that intelligent and spiritual.
David Mayo
Patron with Honors
anonomog
Gold Meritorious Patron
Cost of head cam $50
Price of ticket to Texas $100
Expression on Marty's face when he sees the good samaritan PRICELESS
Cost of head cam $50
Price of ticket to Texas $100
Expression on Marty's face when he sees the good samaritan PRICELESS
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Cost of head cam $50
Price of ticket to Texas $100
Expression on Marty's face when he sees the good samaritan PRICELESS
In Texas they can shoot first and not bother with the questions. Call me Mr. Cynical but I wouldn't trust MR near David in any state with liberal gun carry laws.
Mark A. Baker
chuckbeatty
Patron with Honors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IxWFOWj17M&feature=digest
This video of the AAC shows a LOT of been/there-done/that, if one were to read ALL of Marty's blog, and compare.
Marty and Mike, lived lives most influenced by LRH's writings and marching orders to the Guardians Office, and his final years writings to Int Management. I think LRH's final years of fear of "losing it all" to the dire legal cases of the 80s, left some unforutnate footprints on all of us.
There's so much to discuss, I'm so happy and maybe we can still get answers and comments showing how you feel/felt about some things.
As an admin person, I took the admin training seriously, hoped that I could help make good decision makers, but aware I was mainly NOT in the hot seat, and not aware of the pressures and predicaments of operating in the top ranks admin politics, the top ranked admin people's personalities, and use of this or that latest LRH wrathful and scathing "advice" complaining about ripoff mission holders, or LRH complaining about management itself "...having failed for the millionth time.....", and a person like David Miscavige holding himself like a wog world traditional messenger who is NOT responsible for the content of the order they are carrying, but who can focus ONLY on executing that order, and NOT take responsibility for any errors in that order they are enforcing.
This discussion of Scientology's burning and trouncing on so many of it's ex members and ex staff, I think mainly is due to the admin half of Scientology.
And it has to do with people not having the option to question the admin orders and policies, without repercussions from the admin bureaucracy, which itself is systematically detailedly set up to enforce STICKING TO POLICY rules, on autopilot.
LRH set up a detailed admin setup that enforces itself. Staff study 12 1/2 hours a week, they follow the basic staff hat rules, they get crammed and sent to ethics for failing to carry out the admin rules. The public are sent around the church staff posts, using the routing forms, which detail even the staff duties to be performed by all the staff to the parishioners while going through the org various departments on the way to their services and after they complete their services.
The admin system is quite a large self enforcing auto pilot machine.
The AAC and independent setups I see greatly just drop all the dire pressure rules of official Scientology setups, and THAT to me, IS the biggest improvement overall, of both AAC and all freezoner and independent setups.
The Sea Org management is something LRH didn't even consider dropping, in his final years. I know, I read almost all of his final years admin private writings. He said NOTHING about losing the Sea Org bureaucracy.
I've concluded that the freezone and independents today are essentially similar to the early 1980s protest of the field auditors, the old Class 8s, who just could NOT stomach being under the control of IHELP.
LRH should have known about that protest, and should have dealt with it.
There is so much to discuss, I wish I could interview you before you die.
LRH wrote about using positive positioning for marketing purposes for the Scientology services, and he talked to the GO (and that policy is now in the Office of Special Affairs Network Orders) about the negative positioning one does against one's "enemies."
Marty and Mike with their years of using PIs to get the "goods" on enemies of LRH and Scientology, naturally have it in their bones to today look upon ALL in Scientology history that they know personally about, and focus only on that negative that fits with the "op term" game that Scientology's policy enforces on ALL of Scientology's "enemies". That's LRH's fault, for all those accumulated writings (mainly LRH didn't consider the long range consequences to leaving so many "dead bodies" --- meaning ousted ex members and stafff--- strewn all over who will muddy up the field, because the whole early 1980s mass defection IS a huge result of the wrong and harsh use of the "Int Production Strategy" and fear/threat of "losing it all" attitude that a whole major side of LRH at that time).
LRH wrote all the rules that led and still lead OSA staff and top management to play this "game" of how Scientology creates and propagandizes it's "enemies", so I think unlearning all the accumulated dug up "facts" and the real "goods" on the "enemies" that way of thinking takes some time to even listen to those "enemies" and listen to other people who lived with the earlier generation "enemies" to even listen to the other side of the story and hear enough of the details to get a balanced full view.
I see the big similarities of the AAC and freezone and independents, versus the admin downsides of official Scientology.
And my conclusion is the admin downsides need repair internally in official Scientology.
I think people Marty and Mike as they hear more history, absorb more details, listen to the arguments, they are way more likely to move OUT of old mental habits of their past focus on the "goods" that prove the old "enemies" are due eternal damnation.
We're all free to change our old views, that's for sure! No one is gonna get any new Knowledge Report written on them out here today for listening and changing one's viewpoint.
Here on chat sites like this, people are free to completely shred old false labels.
When I compare AAC history to Marty's new Casa Blanca, I step away from criticizing you for later even being central to "suing" LRH, and I step away from Marty's simplistic focus on your negatives, and I step away from criticizing Marty's learning curve, to seeing something about the bigger larger Scientology admin history setup problems, which trace back to LRH's own reactions, and to LRH's limitations seeing the effects that the admin setups and their rules HAVE on the Scientology staff and parishioners.
There's the obvious similarity of AAC, freezoners, and independents being freer than official SCientology, and LESS heavy ethics, more ARC, affordable prices and good "tech" that people were happy with receiving.
The pressure Scientology has on ex senior members is unfortunately tied to legal stuff, tied to OSA and RTC run operations, tied to Gaurdian's Office earlier policies, tracing to LRH's mindset and LRH's standoff with authorities and media, all his career. And it ties to LRH's tone level and personality, and his daily, weekly, monthly, yearly ups and downs in his own life, and the "threats" he felt were important.
Scientology demonstrates LRH's ideas, via his policy, tech and his private writings that influence leaders like Miscavige, and Miscavige has been influenced by LRH's final years of personal behavior as well. Miscavige's personal opulence, I've written, comes straight from the ASI advices, Harvey Haber should remember those advices, about how LRH wanted each ASI staffer to look like a "million bucks" and another advice to ASI where LRH said each ASI member through their own personal post performance at ASI must be able to make for ASI at least 1 million dollars a years for ASI, and it's a yearly exercise (it was when I was at ASI 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995) to actually sit down and do your yearly summary of how you made a million bucks for ASI, or not, and what you planned to do next year.
Miscavige has a LOT of the cream of LRH's final years of writings, going through his head.
Because Miscavige lived near LRH in LRH's final years, and was pretty much in the know about what LRH was doing, and Miscavige was privy and part of executing LRH's final years of orders to Int/SU and to ASI, and to CST, and to LRH's personal legal matters, really, unfortunately, Miscavige is just acting an imperfect part of LRH's reaction to the world, but only of those final years of LRH's life.
I think possible in late 1979 early 1980, LRH wanted a more kinder and softer landing retirement, sort of, for his own final years on earth. I'd like to hear more what LRH ordered about the Way to Happiness, for one, I remember the short but excellent commendation LRH gave you David for your work on The Happiness Rundown. Bill Franks commented on this site about The Way to Happiness as far as Bill's thought that TWTH might have had a more important larger strategic direction, but obviously as the early 1980s drug on, some dire threats pushed LRH to not give TWTH much thought once those dire threats cropped up.
If only the legal cases, and threats external had not been so dire, then possibly all of Scientology history would be milder and slightly different today.
But the legal blowups of 1981-82-83-84, and accumulating with all the mass defections and the big legal cases which Flynn helped against C of S, that whole TWTH milder more hoped for ending of LRH's life, a softer landing, just was NOT to be.
We ended instead with this legal overreaction, and managerment overreaction period of the early 1980s. The 1982-1983 return to "tough" management and "push production until you run into stops, and then blow the stops off the lines with ethics." that was the LRH WDC 86 Int strategy for Watchdog Committee that was pushed, and is a lynch pin of blaming external sources for the orgs' production problems!
I'd agree that LRH could not possibly have seen that video I linked at the top of this posting. For so many senior ex people like Alan Buchanen and Ken Urquhart to be at AAC, and even if LRH did see this video above, and did nothing, to me, it shows that someone has to overrule LRH even on this whole harsh admin stuff.
Today, were I a clump of Miscavige's brain cells, waiting to dominate the rest of Miscavige's brain, I'd shift to TWTH as major strategy across the boards, I'd go for International Amnesty, I'd send Exec Strata members off to college and into long range training (and pick only Class 8s for Exec Strata and all other top management positions, even if double and triple and quadruple hatted), I'd lower prices, I'd put the whole bridge on the internet, I'd cease all legal cases, especially the crappy one against Gerry Armstrong still being pushed by Moxon/OSA legal. I'd allow and encourage all "squirrels" to all Scientology events, etc, etc.
OSA would be dissolved overnight, were I the dominant clump of brain cells in the brain of the leader at the top of Scientology.
As a side note, those dire legal cases of early 1980s, it's sort of a false pressumption of LRH and thus his most informed top managers, that there was "no way" Scientology could be allowed to lose those cases!
I thought LRH was wrong on that point also. I thought that losing the cases, losing the SO Reserves and losing LRH's innured wealth, so what! Lose it.
Scientology IS the tech, NOT the money on pallets in bank vaults in Liechtenstein, Cyprus or Switzerland and wherever else it sat for years on pallets (Kima Douglas stories are so important, I read Kima's writings when I got out in 2004, and they were a joy to read about her life around "crotchety" LRH in his ups and downs periods.)
There's so much good material from senior ex members, and I for one, hope someone compiles it into some books of anecdotes for history purposes.
I think some of the legal cases official Scientology was having should have just been lost! And I think LRH was wrong to worry that Scientology would die! LRH was worried about "losing it all", and LRH was unfortunately a little schizophrenic, on the one hand writing the caring loving LRH EDs like the "Legacy of the Tech" LRH ED, and the Ron's Journals of the early 1980s were very warm and caring LRH.
But at Int, the management atmosphere was dire and "death to the squirrels", and "smash the psychs", and jail the ripoff Mission Holders, etc, etc. And stomp out the financial criminals in the orgs and misisons, using the "International Finance Police" who were under the Int Finance Office that was run by the "International Finance Dictator".
That climate was LRH's created climate for his management team units. Thus Marty and Mike and others who rightfully consider themselves "most on source" think like LRH.
But, the big lessons are along the lines of THOSE MOMENTS when LRH is wrong, and when LRH's wrongs are causing Scientology's continuing problems.
And having the ability to sort that out. And it NOT being sacrilege to discuss when and how specifically LRH is wrong about his major admin rule entrenched wrongnesses, and decide to lay those worst of admin rules aside permanently to the whole movement's and the world's benefit.
LRH's side for the parishioners, was the caring loving founder in the Ron's Journals of the 1980s, as a Sea Org member living through those tumultuous years, listening and reading LRH's care for the movement, in his Ron's Journals, and even the distinction of tone with which he addressed the wider movement, compared to how behind the scenes he addressed "top management" which was "failing for the millionth time", I for one, could "think with this."
But now, watching the years of continued and similar parallel failings, I think it's time to focus on WHAT big admin things the movement has to dispense with, and make the movement less of a laughing stock abusive operation that almost blackmails it's parishioner base.
Also, you will remember LRH's Int/S traffic, where LRH was overtly scathing of the Int people working in cine and audio, who LRH considered were sabotaging Scientology dissemination and who LRH thought guilty of wasting millions of dollars in unmade income due to that horrible quality of what came out of Cine and Audio at that time, leading to that mass "firing" (off loading) from Gold at that time.
There is so much behind the scenes actual LRH footprints on the mindset of the movement today, due to those final years, the 1981-1983 period being the harshest. I so wish we had the LRH traffic in the public domain to lay this "case" out of the admin "sabotage" and "SP quality" products being done at Gold/Int at that time.
The "guys" who were "sabotaging" things along the audio and cine lines, etc, at Int/S, that was LRH's reaction. David Msicavige as CMO at Int, knew and assumed that LRH scathing attitude, and the wholesale dumping of Int/S staff in 1982, when you were ousted, there's that whole context and history.
The caring loving side and spiritual caring and spiritual improvement side of Scientlogy, is what the parishioners want. LRH still had that in the final Ron's Journals, and that whole caring loving, the ulitimate ARC/KRC side of LRH he was able to communicate, and I for one absorbed and tried to make sense of all that was happening and how LRH talked to the movement.
AAC and freezone and independents seem to just dispense with the whole management turmoil and harsh ethics pressure strategies and lack of fear of "losing it all". That's one major major difference I see in ALL of the freezone independent Scientology outlook. They are bootstrap operations, and thus have no fear of "losing it all."
LRH, I felt, momentarily lapsed and fell into lower toned "money" motivation, when he dropped into this "losing it all" paranoia fear.
I think all the freezone, ex member, independents would do well to take advantage of the luxury of being able to be tolerant and "reasonable".
I'd say that likely Ken Urquhart today, is the "role model" of an evolved Scientologist, who's lived most of LRH's bad sides, and still pursued the tech and maintained a high level of dignity. I also like Ralph Hilton's attitude.
What AAC and what the freezone and what the new independents show, is the tech goes on, and that people who want to do Scientology training and processing figure out how to train and how to deliver it to one another, despite having the big admin setup (which is the part with LRH's own fears and paranoia unfortunately entrenched in it) to ensure it goes on.
Final thought. On this "learning curve" to becoming an evolved and what I think is a higher character evolved Scientologist (in my atheist perspective today, Ken U has my vote), is a Wall Street Journal article that occured in early 1990s. I'll have to dig it up, but it was a sidebar article and one sentence mentioned the release of the 1991 tech vols. The comment was a huge sigh of lament, because a religious scholar or scholars were consulted on this point of Scientology publishing it's "tech" in such permanent form, namely a book. The "wog" WSJ comment was a sort of "oh no! Scientology published ALL their damn tech! Oh no! Scholars now cringe that Scientology is gonna be around for a LONG time, since people will forever be finding and doing this damn tech!"
I laughed when I read that! Publishing the books, was LRH's big big goal.
He got Delderfield to do the OEC, and then the 1976 edition tech vols, and then Miscavige got them updated and published in 1991, and then Miscavige got the reissued books now re published in 2007.
In the bigger history, like looking at if from LRH's output, into the public domain, for the long term effects, that's how I think LRH was wrong to worry about the money, and it was sort of almost cheap to worry about "losing it all".
There's no way Scientology as a subject can be lost, at all, at this point.
The crap admin totalitarian downsides, yes, those WILL be lost, out of natural rejection by the Scientologists who get so tripped up by the admin rules, they can't get the therapy/auditing that they want out of official Scientology.
It's the same old thing, so I appreciate your tiny comment, about "been-there/done-that". (I commented on Marty's blog that you were so obviously pushed into whatever "bad" "enemy" role that conveniently fit Scientology's (LRH's improved GO/OSA intelligence propaganda "tech") label they successfully pushed you into becoming for them to demonize.
Glad to see you here and thanks again!
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MostlyLurker
Patron Meritorious
Thanks for the AAC video Chuck!
Gadfly
Crusader
Yeah, me too! Thanks Chuck. And, for the nice write-up that well explains the horrendous failings of Scientology management and management "policy".
+++++++++++++++++++
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Good post & GREAT video!
Thanks, Chuck.
There really is no two ways about it. All of those persons responsible for driving the group shown in the video are responsible for having behaved in an highly unethical & oppressive fashion.
Mark A. Baker
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Hatshepsut
Crusader
ditto. Helluva ditto 
It's hard to believe they were all ever that young.
Did anyone notice that the females were 'feminine'. Strange thing to notice. How the times have changed us .
It's hard to believe they were all ever that young.
Did anyone notice that the females were 'feminine'. Strange thing to notice. How the times have changed us .
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Veda
Sponsor
I had forgotten how naive most of us (who were "out" in 83/84) were. It's kind of embarrassing. It's also a good reminder.
My views changed rapidly from 1983/84 to the late 1980s. Although I was still auditing, I was also unearthing more and more information about Hubbard and Scientology. Eventually I came out the other side. I was no longer a Scientologist.
As Jack Horner would say, when asked why he was no longer a Scientologist, I had "graduated."
My views changed rapidly from 1983/84 to the late 1980s. Although I was still auditing, I was also unearthing more and more information about Hubbard and Scientology. Eventually I came out the other side. I was no longer a Scientologist.
As Jack Horner would say, when asked why he was no longer a Scientologist, I had "graduated."
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
ditto. Helluva ditto
It's hard to believe they were all ever that young.
Did anyone notice that the females were 'feminine'. Strange thing to notice. How the times have changed us .
What I remember from the time is thinking how old they all seemed to me then. Must have been the Sea Org living conditions.
All except Julie of course.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFTa0pXOPhY
[sidebar: That kid's good.
]Interesting thing how a 'mere' 25 years can change one's perspectives about age & aging.
Mark A. Baker
G
Gottabrain
Guest
Hi David,
You can do heaps of things to help!
You can join an Anon protest locally, even wear a Guy Fawkes mask if you wish.
See www.whyweprotest.net
You can help get others to come forward publicly.
You can help others recover from the effects of the cult of Scientology and get on with life successfully.
You can help on various projects (also see www.whyweprotest.net)
You are already helping by coming out and saying hello - you've raised morale, whether you realize it or not.
Thanks for being here.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Hi David,
You can do heaps of things to help!
You can join an Anon protest locally, even wear a Guy Fawkes mask if you wish.
See www.whyweprotest.net
You can help get others to come forward publicly.
You can help others recover from the effects of the cult of Scientology and get on with life successfully.
You can help on various projects (also see www.whyweprotest.net)
You are already helping by coming out and saying hello - you've raised morale, whether you realize it or not.
Thanks for being here.
David will of course make his own choices, but I don't agree this is a list of 'good activities' for him. Afterall, David is effectively Target #1 and severely bound by the settlement agreement. Some of these activities suggested would put him in a degree of excessive risk which they simply don't justify.
There is one clear exception: you can help others ....
But then that is of course the activity to which David has devoted much of his life and for which he is widely known & respected. I've no doubt that he continues to do so to the present day.
It is also what made him Target #1 in the first place, which says a great deal about the cult.
Mark A. Baker
G
Gottabrain
Guest
David will of course make his own choices, but I don't agree this is a list of 'good activities' for him. Afterall, David is effectively Target #1 and severely bound by the settlement agreement. Some of these activities suggested would put him in a degree of excessive risk which they simply don't justify.
There is one clear exception: you can help others ....
But then that is of course the activity to which David has devoted much of his life and for which he is widely known & respected. I've no doubt that he continues to do so to the present day.
It is also what made him Target #1 in the first place, which says a great deal about the cult.
Mark A. Baker
Yes, he needs to look out for himself and make his own decisions and exercise caution and good judgement. You're right about that.
Many projects have nothing to do with his gag order, though, and are completely anonymous. The WWP board has plenty.
The list I made was off the top of my head. I'm sure David will find a niche that's right for him. And yeh, he's always been one to help others.
AnonKat
Crusader
David will of course make his own choices, but I don't agree this is a list of 'good activities' for him. Afterall, David is effectively Target #1 and severely bound by the settlement agreement. Some of these activities suggested would put him in a degree of excessive risk which they simply don't justify.
There is one clear exception: you can help others ....
But then that is of course the activity to which David has devoted much of his life and for which he is widely known & respected. I've no doubt that he continues to do so to the present day.
It is also what made him Target #1 in the first place, which says a great deal about the cult.
Mark A. Baker
What about The Right to Protest ?
Veda
Sponsor
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
It is best left to the moral conscious of the individual. It is also highly likely to be barred by the terms of the settlement. Moreover, it is not an activity in which it is essential for all to participate.
Whatever the settlement terms may be, I trust David's judgement as to how he can best direct his energies, whatsoever his choices may be.
Mark A. Baker
T
TheSneakster
Guest
Caveat: I am not a lawyer and I am not offering legal advice or counsel.
Mark,
It may be that a good Constitutional lawyer could find holes in David Mayo's confidential settlement agreement big enough to nullify the thing as an unlawful contract. AFAIK, a qualified lawyer, acting as his legal counsel, could examine this settlement agreement which D apparently cannot make public due to its terms and conditions.
Perhaps it would be a worthy effort of the ESMB community to find someone qualified and willing to at least examine the relevant documents to render counsel in this matter ?
It is best left to the moral conscious of the individual. It is also highly likely to be barred by the terms of the settlement. Moreover, it is not an activity in which it is essential for all to participate.
Whatever the settlement terms may be, I trust David's judgement as to how he can best direct his energies, whatsoever his choices may be.
Mark,
It may be that a good Constitutional lawyer could find holes in David Mayo's confidential settlement agreement big enough to nullify the thing as an unlawful contract. AFAIK, a qualified lawyer, acting as his legal counsel, could examine this settlement agreement which D apparently cannot make public due to its terms and conditions.
Perhaps it would be a worthy effort of the ESMB community to find someone qualified and willing to at least examine the relevant documents to render counsel in this matter ?
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