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ESMB Poster "David Mayo"

Julie Mayo said:
We had always stressed that a person should get any medical treatment and get in good physical condition. Back at the AAC we encouraged people to go to medical clinics to get full physical checkups if there were any physical problems. The Causality Programs continued that approach and we had daily regular exercise. We knew it was good for the brain as well as well as general well being.


Ditto.



The Causality Programs had a three pronged approach: The first step was to relieve negativity, (traumatic incidents, failures), on any given subject. An example of this could be relieving painful memories of giving a poor public speech and getting jeered.

The second step was education. Depending on the subject, this could be sending the person to a college or university to do.Taking the public speaking example, this could be taking a class in debating, public speaking, or performing.

The third step was internship. This is where the person went out and practiced the skills. If the person ran into further difficulties, steps 1 through 3 could be repeated if necessary.


Had the Grades been run on this basis--other stuff, too--imagine the results that could have been realized. Perhaps people would have attained the full EPs as promoted. Imagine a Grade 0 that could actually talk/listen to anyone, anytime, etc.


Through years of counseling, we had discovered that a person centered approach had limitations. The person might discharge all negativity on a subject, get revitalized, then set forth and carry on with the same erroneous behavior that had gotten him in trouble in the first place. That is why the education step.


True. All answers are not contained in the person's brain, noggin, or wherever he goes for subjective answers.



We also had discovered that many people receiving counseling such as traumatic incident reduction kept looking into their past to resolve problems long past when it was beneficial. Some past incidents are traumatic and it is beneficial to relieve them, but once that is done, there are other things that influence a person even more: education, culture, family, world events, books, current environment, friends, teachers and so forth. We developed a procedure we called the Influences program to help a person review what had positive and negative impacts on her or his life. It is amazing what huge impact just seeing an inspirational (or scary), movie can have on a person's life.

This is quite an abbreviated description, but I thought you might be interested as to how our thoughts on personal development evolved over the years.

We haven't been delivering Causality Programs for quite a number of years, but I think the results were positive.
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I think your brief comment is worthy of note. This is enough to help some people separate out of the Scientology system.

Thank you.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
Vinaire said:
To me, a being is a construct. It is knowledge that deconstructs it. That is enlightenment.

.
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The "concept" of a "being" is a construct. I have no doubt that to YOU a "being" is a construct. Your posts continue to exhibit endless "thinkingness". And please, stop this boring habit of continually asking questions as a response to the posts of others, instead of simply answering questions.

As I currently view it (my opinion), "knowledge" (data, opinions, significances, attachments) gets deconstructed on a valid path towards enlightenment, but WHAT is doing the deconstructing?

In my little realm of significances, the "being" IS the "observer". That which is AWARE. That which "looks out" and even "creates" most or all of what is "there" for itself.

Again, "being", as the fundamental awareness (and creative source) is FAR more important than any aspect of the illusion of form (which any knowledge is). To me, it isn't even debatable. :confused2:

But, I suppose, since it is true that a thetan can conceive of anything (can mock up and entertain any significance), there surely can/must exist some concatenation of logic based on arbitrary considerations that makes "being" less than knowledge.

And, I am making no implication whether this "being" (awareness) is eternal, part of some larger pool of awareness, or changing (evolving) itself. I am only referring to the relationship between the observer and the observed. Though, to some degree, in this special case of relativity the observer does seem to create some or most or even all of what it observes! Go figure . . . .

Note: As far as posts on discussion boards and exchanges of information go, YES, the information is what matters, and NOT the "personality". In that regard, "knowledge" IS more important than "beingness". But that idea involves a certain redefinition of the terms. Isn't it amazing how context can completely change the evaluation of data?

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Vinaire said:
What matters is knowledge and not the being.

.
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Philosophical BS.

But you, Vinare, may believe what you want. Just keep it inside YOUR threads. (or you may prefer talking to your friends day and night about your and their philosophies... I'm sure it won't get you anywhere.... will just leave you and them with more speculations (notes, mysteries of life...))

Philosophy (any) is a sh*tty guide to live one's life or improve it in any way.

Philosophy is just a basis for an ideology. - It's been this way with Communism, with Nazism, with Scientology, with... you name it.

I'd rather have NO ideology than any.

I'd rather people stopped pushing their (current) philosophical views in ANY thread.
- Since it's been a road to nowhere (into a black hole)

Time to stop philosophizing.
 
VaD said:
Philosophical BS.

But you, Vinare, may believe what you want. Just keep it inside YOUR threads. (or you may prefer talking to your friends day and night about your and their philosophies... I'm sure it won't get you anywhere.... will just leave you and them with more speculations (notes, mysteries of life...))

Philosophy (any) is a sh*tty guide to live one's life or improve it in any way.

Philosophy is just a basis for an ideology. - It's been this way with Communism, with Nazism, with Scientology, with... you name it.

I'd rather have NO ideology than any.

I'd rather people stopped pushing their (current) philosophical views in ANY thread.
- Since it's been a road to nowhere (into a black hole)

Time to stop philosophizing.
Click to expand...

Yes, toss those ideologies overboard! :thumbsup:

They serve no useful purpose. Has there EVER been an ideology that has had an overall positive effect on Man? It seems to me that entertaining and harboring ANY ideology prevents honest and unbiased perception. Ideologies function as "fixed ideas" and greatly prevent any additional learning. Honest observation (and unfettered thinking) STOPS at the point of accepting an "ideology". This is another area where Hubbard was totally correct. On the subject of "fixed ideas", they DO prevent learning. Just as described by Hubbard (who took the ideas directly from Alfred Korzybski). But then, unbeknownst to the deluded followers, Hubbard actually sets out and LAYS INTO THE MINDS OF PARTICIPANTS a great many "fixed ideas", fixed ideas directly rooted in Scientology "data" (concepts, ideas, beliefs) that block perceptions, prevent "new" observations, and disrupts a logical connection of ideas.

Scientology, regardless of whatever value some of the data may contain, FUNCTIONS for most people, most of the time, and especially within the confines of the organized Church of Scientology, in the realm of IDEOLOGY. In the end, sadly, Scientology ends up functioning just like so many other infantile Earth religions. Hubbard wanted it to be recognized "as a religion". And, so it is!!!!!!

+++++++++++
 
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Gadfly said:
Yes, toss those ideologies overboard! :thumbsup:

They serve no useful purpose.

+++++++++++
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Those exact words, "I'd rather have no ideology than any", I heard when I was on EPF in Moscow in March 1994 (very beginning of my SO "careeer") from some guy who was routing out.

- See how long it took me to realize truthfullness of his words? :duh:
 
my 2 cent worth

Julie Mayo said:
We had always stressed that a person should get any medical treatment and get in good physical condition. Back at the AAC we encouraged people to go to medical clinics to get full physical checkups if there were any physical problems. The Causality Programs continued that approach and we had daily regular exercise. We knew it was good for the brain as well as well as general well being.

The Causality Programs had a three pronged approach: The first step was to relieve negativity, (traumatic incidents, failures), on any given subject. An example of this could be relieving painful memories of giving a poor public speech and getting jeered.

The second step was education. Depending on the subject, this could be sending the person to a college or university to do.Taking the public speaking example, this could be taking a class in debating, public speaking, or performing.

The third step was internship. This is where the person went out and practiced the skills. If the person ran into further difficulties, steps 1 through 3 could be repeated if necessary.

Through years of counseling, we had discovered that a person centered approach had limitations. The person might discharge all negativity on a subject, get revitalized, then set forth and carry on with the same erroneous behavior that had gotten him in trouble in the first place. That is why the education step.

We also had discovered that many people receiving counseling such as traumatic incident reduction kept looking into their past to resolve problems long past when it was beneficial. Some past incidents are traumatic and it is beneficial to relieve them, but once that is done, there are other things that influence a person even more: education, culture, family, world events, books, current environment, friends, teachers and so forth. We developed a procedure we called the Influences program to help a person review what had positive and negative impacts on her or his life. It is amazing what huge impact just seeing an inspirational (or scary), movie can have on a person's life.

This is quite an abbreviated description, but I thought you might be interested as to how our thoughts on personal development evolved over the years.

We haven't been delivering Causality Programs for quite a number of years, but I think the results were positive.
Click to expand...

Julia,
from what I know what you delivered was NOTHING like Scientology (in any way, shape or form).

Causality Program makes sense to me. It must have been beneficial to those who went through it in the long run. (Not just short-termed "wins and realizations" after which persons get back to realities of life without seeing slightest change in themselves and in the world).

May be you should make a call to get some people trained in what you were doing?

(There are followers of Idenics, Knowledgism and Metapsychology around here that might be interested in your techniques - to learn them, keep them going and maybe even improve on them).

One thing I don't want is that something good that existed get buried with those who created that (meaning, no disciples left behind helping make people's lives better).

Just a thought.
 
If the "gag agreement"/"superglue" limiting David (and Julie?) is a matter of public record, it would probably be helpful to post it here for all to understand.

Also, hi, Mayos! I'm nobody you would know and don't know that much about you, but I've seen your names here and there and am happy to see you posting here.
 
VaD said:
I don't think Julie:
1) promoted (just gave a brief decription in response to another poster)
2) promoted Scientology (to which you refer - about promises and threats)

Caliwog, I respect your viewpoint... but here you are not talking to a "dedicated Scientologist". - You are rathar talking to someone who left Scn long looooong time ago.

Please be considerate to those whom you address. :)
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He never said what you assume here. His swipe was NOT at Julie. But, only at Scientology.

There is no need to tell him to be considerate. He wasn't inconsiderate.

Possibly, due to the language thing, you misinterpreted something about his post. He prefaced his slurs with "all that is missing", meaning all that was missing from the AAC program were these things (found elsewhere in organized Scientoogy). Correct me if I am wrong Caliwog.

++++++
 
Well, call me mean, but there does come a limit to my patience with people who continuously misunderstand and then post extensively what appear to me to be attempts to disturb based on that misunderstanding.
 
Voltaire's Child said:
Who has EVER been threatened with banning because they thought the subject didn't work?
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Is that sarcasm? :confused2:

I sometimes can't tell on these newfangled Internet discussion boards.

If so, cool.

If not, I will clarify. If anybody speaks openly within the framework of organized Scientology and asserts that "Scientology doesn't work", and continues to assert this to other Church members despite all attempted "handlings" to not do so, there is NO DOUBT that the person will find him or herself the unhappy recipient of a great MANY THREATS by the ethics officer and eventually by the rote Scientology justice system. Minimally one would find oneself charged as guilty with violating one of the 10 points of KSW. ANY person who does NOT agree and support every point of KSW can be found guilty of a suppressive act! Strange shit, huh? Meaning that if you don't "know that it is correct", and "that it works", or at least don't PRETEND to "know that", then you ARE GUILTY of a well-published suppressive act (violation of ANY of the ten points of KSW).

Simply, within organized Scientology you can be found guilty of a suppressive act simply for NOT agreeing with certain ideas.

MANY people have violations of one or more points of KSW listed on their SP declares or Comm Evs - as suppressive acts.

+++++++++++
 
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VaD said:
Who was this message addressed TO?
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VaD, get some sleep or drink more coffee! :D

Caliwog wrote:

"All that's missing are the promises to be able to travel through space and time at will and threats to be banned if you dare say the subject doesn't work!"

Fluffy then wrote:

"Who has EVER been threatened with banning because they thought the subject didn't work?"

:confused2:

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