New SP Times article: Former Scientology insiders describe a world of coercion
- Thread starter TEoS
- Start date
NCSP
Patron Meritorious
Fantastic!
I loved the interview with Hy! He was my D of P from OT 5-7---great
guy. I look forward to MOAR!
Tory/Magoo
I loved it too. In the video, the moment when he chokes up talking about the feeling of freedom he feels now, and how much he appreciates everything we take for granted -- I got choked up too.
anonomog
Gold Meritorious Patron
I am very glad he is out and it is wonderful it is being made known to the wider public. He deserves kudos for talking out, it must have taken a lot of guts.
But I also look at it with completely non-scientology eyes and it is quite another view. In real life people are responsible for their actions.
It took 16 years for him to notice that the people he was "helping" by screwing mercilessly weren't actually getting "better" or having their lives improved?
He loved the work, begs a question, if the quotas weren't so insane and his own stress were kept within a handleable range, would he still be happily extorting money from people? It must have been quite a rush at times.
He saw the same people again and again.
It must have been plainly obvious that some of these people were in severe financial and emotional distress because of his need to make a sale. How many people took their own lives because of this? How many kid's lost their homes and education? How many marriages were destroyed by the extreme financial stress?
From a non-scientology viewpoint, COS is just another company employing salemen trying to make money.
Put this in a real world context:
Mr Levy is employed as a sales representative for a further learning college. The college offers short courses and long term degrees and for argument's sake it is a highly respected institution and the courses are legit.
Mr Levy really believes in the quality of the product.
So this completely justifies extreme bullying and lying to students to buy updated study materials and vaguely related courses to the point of madnes?
Checking their credit to sell them more, extorting inheritances and retirement funds and food money is okay because these courses will help the mark sometime in the future?
Sure the college is guilty for mandating and enforcing unethical sales tactics and should be legally punished.
But what about the long time salesman?
Does his statement that he believed he was helping people clear him completely? Does the "I was brainwashed plea" clear him?
Is the known fact that he would have been inhumanely punished, by the college if he hadn't have complied, enough to justify 16 years of extortion and unethical sales tactics?
:confused2:
I do understand some of the pressures Mr Levy was under.
99.99% of the rest of the world doesn't.
They just see another corporation encouraging willing henchmen to engage in morally and ethically bankrupt business practices.
Am I being overly critical? Should he deserve a break because he suffered enough and is making amends by speaking out?
But I also look at it with completely non-scientology eyes and it is quite another view. In real life people are responsible for their actions.
It took 16 years for him to notice that the people he was "helping" by screwing mercilessly weren't actually getting "better" or having their lives improved?
He loved the work, begs a question, if the quotas weren't so insane and his own stress were kept within a handleable range, would he still be happily extorting money from people? It must have been quite a rush at times.
He saw the same people again and again.
It must have been plainly obvious that some of these people were in severe financial and emotional distress because of his need to make a sale. How many people took their own lives because of this? How many kid's lost their homes and education? How many marriages were destroyed by the extreme financial stress?
From a non-scientology viewpoint, COS is just another company employing salemen trying to make money.
Put this in a real world context:
Mr Levy is employed as a sales representative for a further learning college. The college offers short courses and long term degrees and for argument's sake it is a highly respected institution and the courses are legit.
Mr Levy really believes in the quality of the product.
So this completely justifies extreme bullying and lying to students to buy updated study materials and vaguely related courses to the point of madnes?
Checking their credit to sell them more, extorting inheritances and retirement funds and food money is okay because these courses will help the mark sometime in the future?
Sure the college is guilty for mandating and enforcing unethical sales tactics and should be legally punished.
But what about the long time salesman?
Does his statement that he believed he was helping people clear him completely? Does the "I was brainwashed plea" clear him?
Is the known fact that he would have been inhumanely punished, by the college if he hadn't have complied, enough to justify 16 years of extortion and unethical sales tactics?
:confused2:
I do understand some of the pressures Mr Levy was under.
99.99% of the rest of the world doesn't.
They just see another corporation encouraging willing henchmen to engage in morally and ethically bankrupt business practices.
Am I being overly critical? Should he deserve a break because he suffered enough and is making amends by speaking out?
Panda Termint
Cabal Of One
Probably.
Hy truly believed in the product he was selling and truly believed that it actually delivered all that it promised.
I liked him then and appreciate his speaking out so frankly now.
Lulu Belle
Moonbat
Probably.
I can personally understand that. Believe it or not, when I was in the Sea Org, I loved my post. LOVED it. The work I did in my actual job was not what made me leave. Quite the opposite. It's what kept me there for a long time.
Gadfly
Crusader
Probably.
Hy truly believed in the product he was selling and truly believed that it actually delivered all that it promised.
I liked him then and appreciate his speaking out so frankly now.
Jesus Christ on a Cross, why do people use this notion of "he believed in what he was doing" as some index that MAKES IT BE OKAY????!!!!! :confused2:
The priests of the Spanish Inquisition TRULY BELIEVED that they were "saving the souls of sinners" when they tightened the thumbscrews during torture or lit the blazing fire around the heretic.
The psychiatrist truly believed that he was "helping" some person when he injected him or her full of Thorazine (the "chemical lobotomy') or continually jolted high current into his or her brain. (i.e. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest)
Some Nazis TRULY BELIEVED that they were HELPING to "bring about a glorious new era for Mankind" by eradicating the "lower forms of genetic slime and scum".
I truly do not grasp how some people use this idea as a gauge for "decency" or "validity".
The truth is that people often believe really STUPID SHIT and USE IT AS AN EXCUSE to commit endless harm to other people.
Hubbard nailed it in the Code of Honor when he said:
Never fear to harm another in a just cause!
THAT is what Hy was doing. He "believed", and that "faith" justified his consistent behavior over many years. That is also what the priest of the Spanish Inquisition was doing. That is what the Muslim terrorist does when he blows up a bus full of school kids. They each BELIEVE what they are "selling", and they are each easily content to HARM OTHERS in the name of their (delusional, imaginary) "just cause".
As I see it, anonomog was not at all "being too critical".
Believers do not see any of what they do as "harm" to others. They see it as "a good thing".
Maybe someday Hy and others like him will realize that "taking all that money" from people while selling them a non-existant "bridge to total freedom" was NOT such a "nice thing to do". It is interesting how "stupid people" (true believers, converts) are forgiven the same crimes or nasty behaviors that evil people are held accountable for. Hubbard gets vilified for creating and selling a deceitful "bridge to total freedom", but folks like Hy are "admired" because he was "doing what he believed". Just another contradiction of Scientology.
Hubbard sure knew what he was doing when he attracted followers with the "help" button!
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Purple Rain
Crusader
I am very glad he is out and it is wonderful it is being made known to the wider public. He deserves kudos for talking out, it must have taken a lot of guts.
But I also look at it with completely non-scientology eyes and it is quite another view. In real life people are responsible for their actions.
It took 16 years for him to notice that the people he was "helping" by screwing mercilessly weren't actually getting "better" or having their lives improved?
He loved the work, begs a question, if the quotas weren't so insane and his own stress were kept within a handleable range, would he still be happily extorting money from people? It must have been quite a rush at times.
He saw the same people again and again.
It must have been plainly obvious that some of these people were in severe financial and emotional distress because of his need to make a sale. How many people took their own lives because of this? How many kid's lost their homes and education? How many marriages were destroyed by the extreme financial stress?
From a non-scientology viewpoint, COS is just another company employing salemen trying to make money.
Put this in a real world context:
Mr Levy is employed as a sales representative for a further learning college. The college offers short courses and long term degrees and for argument's sake it is a highly respected institution and the courses are legit.
Mr Levy really believes in the quality of the product.
So this completely justifies extreme bullying and lying to students to buy updated study materials and vaguely related courses to the point of madnes?
Checking their credit to sell them more, extorting inheritances and retirement funds and food money is okay because these courses will help the mark sometime in the future?
Sure the college is guilty for mandating and enforcing unethical sales tactics and should be legally punished.
But what about the long time salesman?
Does his statement that he believed he was helping people clear him completely? Does the "I was brainwashed plea" clear him?
Is the known fact that he would have been inhumanely punished, by the college if he hadn't have complied, enough to justify 16 years of extortion and unethical sales tactics?
:confused2:
I do understand some of the pressures Mr Levy was under.
99.99% of the rest of the world doesn't.
They just see another corporation encouraging willing henchmen to engage in morally and ethically bankrupt business practices.
Am I being overly critical? Should he deserve a break because he suffered enough and is making amends by speaking out?
This is going to sound narky, and I don't mean it to be, but is he on trial? If so, what is his crime? If it's just a moral or ethical thing, how many of our lives could stand up to the harsh light of cross-examination?
I am not a Christian anymore, but I still love the line about 'let the person who has never done anything wrong accuse the other person'. If you want grace, give grace is my theory. Yes, there are limits, of course, which is why we have laws. But I really do get pissed off at what I perceive as this constant putting of high profile exes on trial; like they are some kind of war criminal, and the rest of the world is so perfect they can sit back and judge and throw stones.
Not that any of us are above criticism, but if he needs to be "cleared" of wrongdoing then so does every other human. We're not gods to sit in judgement of other mortals. That is my opinion.
Purple Rain
Crusader
Christ on a stick, why do people use this notion of "he believed in what he was doing" as some index that MAKES IT BE OKAY????!!!!! :confused2:
The priests of the Spanish Inquisition TRULY BELIEVED that they were "saving the souls of sinners" when they tightened the thumbscrews during torture or lit the blazing fire around the heretic.
The psychiatrist truly believed that he was "helping" some person when he injected him or her full of Thorazine (the "chemical lobotomy') or continually jolted high current into his or her brain. (i.e. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest)
Some Nazis TRULY BELIEVED that they were HELPING to "bring about a glorious new era for Mankind" by eradicating the "lower forms of genetic slime and scum".
I truly do not grasp how some people use this idea as a gauge for "decency" or "validity".
The truth is that people often believe really STUPID SHIT and USE IT AS AN EXCUSE to commit endless harm to other people.
Hubbard nailed it in the Code of Honor when he said:
Never fear to harm another in a just cause!
THAT is what Hy was doing. He "believed", and that "faith" justified his consistent behavior over many years. That is also what the priest of the Spanish Inquisition was doing. That is what the Muslim terrorist does when he blows up a bus full of school kids. They each BELIEVE what they are "selling", and they are each easily content to HARM OTHERS in the name of their (delusional, imaginary) "just cause".
As I see it, anonomog was not at all "being too critical".
So you have never harmed another? Glad to hear it.
Yes to all of these.
Purple Rain
Crusader
I'm sorry. I was just really sad when David Mayo was so attacked when he started posting on the board. I liked him and Julie and I kind of miss them. I just think it's... unnecessary. 
Gadfly
Crusader
I'm sorry. I was just really sad when David Mayo was so attacked when he started posting on the board. I liked him and Julie and I kind of miss them. I just think it's... unnecessary.
David Mayo was attacked here? On ESMB? Cripes, I had a few really nice discussions with him. Overall he seemed to be quite "well received" on ESMB. What you describe is NOT what I saw. :confused2:
Am I missing something?
Just goes to show how differently we each "see" the world around us.
Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
Debbie Cook was indeed married to Allen Buchanan and Sonya Jacques was formerly Mrs Caccavella. No idea what happened to Dave.
Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
wow - you managed to read the whole post and not understand any of it? That's fairly impressive.
I even re-read it to be sure that i had not missed the part where gadfly said he had never harmed anyone.
Was it in invisible pixels?
Gadfly
Crusader
Sure I have harmed other people. But, I have always tried to learn from my own stupid behavior and move on as a better person.
I remember talking to Paul Miller (FSO Reg) back in about 1987, We had been fairly good friends back at FOLO EUS (when he was an FSC there in the late 1970s). He told me that he stayed and did what he did due to "Boots in the Sky". He BELIEVED that he was acting to "save the universe". He took all of that VERY seriously - future eternities, etc. He accepted, adopted and "thought ONLY with" all of Hubbard's nonsense.
But I saw it differently. I would watch him reg people, almost asleep a great deal of the time (he had a metabolism problem and was grossly overweight), He "knew the patter". He "knew the drill". He had rehearsed the lines and angles a thousand times. He was "experienced" and he could do what he did asleep (and he actually often DID just that).
Now, I was in the Sea Org for a few years. But, there was a difference. I NEVER liked how people were pushed around. I never liked the "hard sell". I was familiar with all the "LRH references", and no matter how much I read the stuff, it was always FUCKED UP (to me). I could never tolerate how people would be coerced, forced, and pressured into givivng every last penny "for the good of Mankind".
I didn't last in the Sea Org because I did not agree with 1) the extreme fanaticism, 2) the intense force and "over-dedicated" single-mindedness, 3) the "we are the only ones with the RIGHT answers" pompous pretentious attitude that ran all throughout Scientology, and 4) how individuals were constantly verbally, emotionally and financially raped in the name of "bringing about Ron's vision of a Scientology planet".
People who remain in the Sea Org and keep "contributing" for long periods of time are DELUSIONAL. They are tremendously decieved. They have allowed themselves to buy into a HUGE SCAM. They are dreamers who continue to forward a never-attainable ideal that they happily foist onto the world around them, as if they are the True Saviors of The Universe.
I am sorry, I have NO respect for people who accept nonsense as truth, and who work tirelessly to foist THAT on everybody else, while PRETENDING to be "helping to bring about a better world". THAT is REALLY what they are doing.
Stop being so fucking reasonable!@!!!!!!
Differeniate!
There are the ideals and IDEAS that Hubbard claims about Scientology. There are the hopes. There are the dreams. These are largely all bullshit, and for any person to keep mocking up these imaginary "future possibilities" means that these sorts of people have a tendency to AVOID FACING actual facts and realities, and instead remain MIRED in their MINDS, lost in fantasies of "OT abilities", "better conditions", and a "world without war, crime or insanity". These sort of people stay focued on the BAIT instead of noticing the "switch" (of the "bait and switch").
See, the goals and ideals are okay. They are even "admirable". But they have NOTHING to do with actual Scientology. They are NOT attainable with Scientology and they DON'T EXIST outside of the Scientology member's over-active imagination. There comes a point where every person needs to learn the line between the mental and the physical. Scientologists are LOSTin a Twilight Zone between the two.
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Gadfly
Crusader
Gadfly
Crusader
I just bought the print version of today's paper. The Scientology stories occupy 75% of the front page as well as 4 FULL inside pages!
VWD to the SP Times! Excellent!
Purple Rain
Crusader
Thank you. No, but since Gadfly was likening the harm Hy did to Nazis, Spanish Inquisitors and suicide bombers, I assumed he was asserting he had done nothing so terrible as that himself. My bad.
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