After Scientology - Getting Over the Shame and the Guilt

[tetloj]

"You must be dissapointed in yourself".

<shudders at the weirdness of this kind of behaviour from people>

Being out of work is no fun Greg but I think you aced this!



It seems increasing numbers of people in the world are capable of genuine interaction and instead 'case manage' you.

<shudders again>

 

[freshmusician]

I've never admitted to anyone that I was a Scientologist. I'd rather say I dealt crack. :-(

 

[poppy]

I was sooooooo ashamed. Ashamed ashamed ashamed. Ashamed of who I was. So ashamed I couldn't tell people I was ever in Scn. I don't even really know why I felt that way, I couldn't blame myself for being brought up in it. The more I tried to run away from the past and pretend that scn never happened to me the more it haunted me. I have learnt, am learning, to accept the person I was and the person I am today. I have learnt to feel proud of the fact that somehow, despite all the opposition, I found the strength to leave, to start a new life. I think there will always be a shred of shame tattooed on my soul but I accept that was a part of me and in many ways that's part of how I got to where I am today. Acceptance is the key for me, acceptance of the good and the bad parts of me.

 

[uniquemand]

If the worst thing about you is the circumstances of your birth, you're leaps and bounds ahead of me. I started out with everything. Every advantage: money, education, political connections, athletic gifts, etc., and ended up as a cultist idiot. Think of it that way. That being said, I haven't ever been ashamed of having looked into Scientology. I'm ashamed of having recruited people and advertising for them before I knew what I was talking about, because I let them push me around and dictate my behavior when I thought it would be wiser to explore more, first.

 

[Lurker5]

Contrary to some Christian interpretations of the Biblical Adam and Eve story, we are not actually born with a sense of shame or guilt, though we are born with other instinctual emotions and reactions, for example, fear of heights, recognition of mother.

Shame and guilt are learned societal behaviours. These feelings are actually thrust upon us by others early in life (ages 2-5). These are the ages when we learn self-sufficient behaviour, initiative, judgment, planning and independence. In our attempts at self-sufficiency, we also learn frustration, aggression, assertiveness, self-limits, success and failure in goal achievement, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erikson's_stages_of_psychosocial_development

Many animals learn shame (perhaps guilt as well) from their groups. Many do not. Have you ever tried teaching a puppy not to poo in the house? Anyone who has, knows what I mean - the long face and brooding afterwards, the tail held down when the dog is scolded. He feels ashamed, but he doesn't know yet what he did wrong, because he forgets so quickly and doesn't connect the action of pooing in the house with "bad dog". So we show him the poo, try to get him to make the connection. Eventually, if he's somewhat normal and you're a good trainer, he understands. Good doggy!! Tail wags again - puppy is happy, he did the right thing!

Did you know wild animals do this as well? Animal behaviour fascinates me. I've been studying wild parrots almost daily for 8 years now and have this to share from another thread.





In the last few days, I've been trying to put this all together.

Guilt is what one feels after one has done something wrong. Shame, on the other hand, is a lack of self-worth caused by rejection by a group or individual.

Shame is a LEARNED behaviour and it is also in direct opposition to a person or animal's personal survival.

Parrots with beak and feather disease regained a sense of belonging and lose their shame when they are put in a flock of similar birds. Most wild parrots, having never been picked on or excluded from their flock, never demonstrated shame of any kind.

The few disabled birds that do not exhibit shame or guilt behaviours are a fascinating study in themselves. Some have more than one flock or are a bit more cunning or observant than the average parrot. It appears that they have learned to hone their skills in a more individualised way, instilling a sort of self-confidence that they are worthy. They are not picked on nearly as badly as the others, either - the flock mostly treats them as "not really worthy, but not a disability either. Ignore".

The others, well - it is a self-perpetuating cycle. The more shameful they act, the worse they are treated. Their "shame" behaviour gives the others the idea they actually have a reason to be ashamed and acts like a magnet to the bullying ones.

My whole take on it is - Guilt is useful, but shame is personally destructive. Shame is a group mechanism, guilt is a personal mechanism. If you don't believe in yourself yet, start acting like you do, anyway, because it will change the way others treat you and eventually, you WILL believe in yourself.

This is junior high school bullying too, when the clique, or the leader of it decides to pick on someone. And same reaction, when the bullied kid reacts with shame, the bullying gets worse. Scapegoating - old as mankind. Not right, but right in there in our behavioral traits. We are supposed to be smarter than animals, and rise above this kind of behavior, use our frontal lobe, the conscience, but as we all know, not everyone does.

I have seen cats with shame, and definitely dogs. But not all, just some. It seems to me that the smarter they are, the more likely they are to develop a sense of shame.

I have a rescued cat, who has no shame, but she is fairly smart. She was a street kitty, and raised kittens as a kitten herself. She knows fear/hide and agitation/attack. We have bonded, but it has taken a long, long time, and lots of work (and meat). When she does something, like knock all the books off a shelf, or knocks something big down, in her ventures around the house (ahem), I can always tell when I walk in the door that something is up with her. She is almost like a little kid, meowing and meowing, trying to get me to follow her - to her 'boo-boo'. She is showing me what she did, not with pride - or shame. She just knows she did something 'boo-boo' - and she is showing me, and wondering - wtf?. She will sit down next to it, looking at me, questioningly.

I usually say "Ugh oh", and laugh - even when its a big mess to clean up.

I find this behavior fascinating.

I don't know birds as well as cats, or dogs, but I have to tell you, I find parrots fascinating too. I think birds may be one of the most intelligent animals on the planet.

 

[Pooks]

Thanks for the awesome Ted videos. I could watch those several times over.

 

[Caroline]

I SO agree with you! My first protest and vid was, in one way, my best - it was by far the most raw, the most emotional. Yet it was also the most difficult, it was so hard coming forward. I was terrified, I hadn't even slept the night before, I was so nervous about coming out publicly and it showed - which made it also my worst video. To tell you I felt BETTER as it went on and afterward would be the understatement of the year. Personally standing up and fighting this abusive group and its abusive practices FREED me like nothing else could.

It's a funny thing about shame. ALL shame is false though, don't you think? Because it is imposed upon a person by a group according to its culture of what it believes is best for the group's survival by its own (right or wrong) set of codes and conduct. Scientology had inhumane codes and horrible conduct, designed to further Scientology's own expansion. We left this only to find that the entire group of Scientology was in violation of the larger group's (mankind's, society's) codes of what is right or wrong, criminal or acceptable, humane or not. OUCH!

Pack animals that have been segregated from the group experience shame, but
GUILT, on the other hand, is entirely human.

Guilt is rooted in personal conscience, judgement, goals, etc.

I wonder how many of us initially felt excluded from another group to have become vulnerable to scn in the first place? Or even felt we didn't quite fit in to our prior group?

With the parrots, ONLY those who have been excluded or exhibit noticeable differences will go off to seek other groups. And ONLY those who have been previously excluded are open to become full members of another flock/group.

So perhaps there was a bit of instinct in play here, too, when we first joined. Meaning that our decisions to join and to stay were perhaps not 100% self-determined, independent and conscious.

That same instinct, to go off elsewhere and be open to different groups, different experiences, to explore our own differences - both strengths and weaknesses, may be behind every great human accomplishment and the core seed of all individual discovery or creation.

Man's greatest accomplishments are, in fact, borne of shame.

What do you think?

Wow, great question. No, I don't think all shame is false. As a strategy, I think certain types of shaming are barbaric, and extraordinarily harmful, to the individuals who apply it, the groups who condone or order it, and the individuals on whom it is applied.

False shame: is associated with false condemnation as in the double-bind form of false shaming; "he brought what we did to him upon himself". Author and TV personality John Bradshaw calls shame the "emotion that lets us know we are finite."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame#Shame_vs._guilt_and_embarrassment

Scientology teaches that "You are totally responsible for the condition you are in." Scientology taught me that I was totally responsible for being raped and otherwise abused as a child. That false shame endured throughout my time in Scientology. The source of it is Hubbard's teaching that denies developmental psychology.

Toxic shame is another sub-type with application to Scientology.

Toxic shame: describes false, pathological shame, and Bradshaw states that toxic shame is induced, inside children, by all forms of child abuse. Incest and other forms of child sexual abuse can cause particularly severe toxic shame. Toxic shame often induces what is known as complex trauma in children who cannot cope with toxic shaming as it occurs and who dissociate the shame until it is possible to cope with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame#Shame_vs._guilt_and_embarrassment

So then we have to look at the social formation, particularly what constitutes its crimes and unforgiveable acts, and how these acts are punished. Scientologists seek to enforce their penalties for crimes and high crimes not only within their group, but outside as well.

A Scientologist who fails to use Scientology technology and its administrative and justice procedures on the world around him will continue to be too enturbulated to do his job.

Hubbard, L. (1965, 27 March) The Justice of Scientology Its Use and Purpose Being a Scientologist. Organization Executive Course.(Basic Staff Volume 0, 1991 ed., pp. 483-5). Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, Inc.

The Gerry Armstrong case is an excellent example of Scientologists seeking to use their ethics and justice procedures outside of their group.

I also appreciate the possible distinction between shame and guilt, i.e., shame applying to who we are, whereas guilt being confined to what we've done. Also:

Psychoanalyst Helen B. Lewis argued that, "The experience of shame is directly about the self, which is the focus of evaluation. In guilt, the self is not the central object of negative evaluation, but rather the thing done is the focus." Similarly, Fossum and Mason say in their book Facing Shame that "While guilt is a painful feeling of regret and responsibility for one's actions, shame is a painful feeling about oneself as a person." Following this line of reasoning, Psychiatrist Judith Lewis Herman concludes that "Shame is an acutely self-conscious state in which the self is 'split,' imagining the self in the eyes of the other; by contrast, in guilt the self is unified."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame#Shame_vs._guilt_and_embarrassment

As was mentioned earlier, the Wikipedia article on Erikson's stages of psychosocial development has guilt and shame being learned behaviors between 2 and 5 years. Very interesting. It seems to me that Scientology's ethics system attempts to rewire our behaviors at developmental levels, with, among other things, the ethics conditions and their formulas. "Find out where YOU are." "Find out THAT you are." "Find out who you really are" relate to developmental stages. Scientologists aren't even granted existence status until they do the Non-existence formula.

The lower conditions, i.e., the conditions below "Non-Existence," seek to fundamentally change who and what we are, in ways that eliminate our "counter-intention" and bring us into compliance with "Command Intention." All to forward Scientology's totalitarian goals for everyone on Earth. To me, that's shameful.

 

[Gottabrain]

It seems increasing numbers of people in the world are capable of genuine interaction and instead 'case manage' you.

<shudders again>

Isn't that the truth?! Flippant, off-the-wall, clinically evaluative comments by mgrs and asst mgrs with absolutely no business saying such things seems to be the latest craze in businesses - as if being a mgr or asst mgr makes the other person a willing patient and the mgr a qualified, experienced psychologist! They can go stuff themselves.

I've never admitted to anyone that I was a Scientologist. I'd rather say I dealt crack. :-(

...Scapegoating - old as mankind. Not right, but right in there in our behavioral traits. We are supposed to be smarter than animals, and rise above this kind of behavior, use our frontal lobe, the conscience, but as we all know, not everyone does.

I have a rescued cat... She is almost like a little kid, meowing and meowing, trying to get me to follow her - to her 'boo-boo'. She is showing me what she did, not with pride - or shame. She just knows she did something 'boo-boo' - and she is showing me, and wondering - wtf?. She will sit down next to it, looking at me, questioningly.

I usually say "Ugh oh", and laugh - even when its a big mess to clean up.

I find this behavior fascinating.

I don't know birds as well as cats, or dogs, but I have to tell you, I find parrots fascinating too. I think birds may be one of the most intelligent animals on the planet.

That IS fascinating. She is intelligent enough to know, responsible enough to point it out to you as something to correct, but no shame/guilt. Wouldn't it be great if all humans could achieve that?

Parrots are my fave because they have let me into their lives and ways in such an intimate way. It's as if they've MARKED me, weird as that sounds - I can drive anywhere in Aus, get out of my car, notice a bird and that bird will follow me for food or something. I don't have that with other animals. Truthfully, I dearly love them all, though.

 

[Gottabrain]

As was mentioned earlier, the Wikipedia article on Erikson's stages of psychosocial development has guilt and shame being learned behaviors between 2 and 5 years. Very interesting. It seems to me that Scientology's ethics system attempts to rewire our behaviors at developmental levels, with, among other things, the ethics conditions and their formulas. "Find out where YOU are." "Find out THAT you are." "Find out who you really are" relate to developmental stages. Scientologists aren't even granted existence status until they do the Non-existence formula.

The lower conditions, i.e., the conditions below "Non-Existence," seek to fundamentally change who and what we are, in ways that eliminate our "counter-intention" and bring us into compliance with "Command Intention." All to forward Scientology's totalitarian goals for everyone on Earth. To me, that's shameful.

This is spectacular, Caroline. You could write an academic paper on this. Thanks so much.

I will comment further on your post later tonight, I'm a bit short of time right now. Food for thought. Yours was a seriously outstanding, revelatory post.

 

[Man de la Mancha]

In another thread somebody makes a statement to the effect that everything is love. In this dualistic universe, in order for one extreme to exist so must the other for the sake of context. It may seem like "hate" would be the polar opposite of love, but I believe "fear" best fits that bill. This isn't a new idea, but if fear and love are truly the two emotional "colors", then "shame and guilt" are certainly forms of fear, and that's easy to see.

I can't remember who introduced me to this concept, but it has been helpful to me over the years. I think that by recognizing feelings such as "shame" and "guilt" (or jealousy, anger etc) as forms of fear it is easier to let them go.

Everybody has done things that harmed others, and conversely, we have all been harmed by others. How about everyone call it a wash and forgive yourself already?

Forgiveness = Love, Judgmentalism = Fear (and shame and guilt.....).

 

[onthepes]

Oh wow, Greg. But good for you! Can you imagine what you would feel like a few days now, a week from now, a month from now if you had groveled to keep that job? Can you imagine the increasing tiredness, the energy draining out of you, the sleeplessnes, the unsettledness, the downer it would be to stay in a job that you hate, because you are treated like that and cannot have integrity?

To be honest, I just went through something like that a few weeks ago. So maybe we are sort of traveling along parallel lives here together now.

One other thing I decided in these two weeks is that I will work for myself from now on - I've had too many experiences like that and I'm sick of it, too. When I had my own business, I was darn happy and the money was just as good. So I'm getting back on the horse, mate, and I wish you to work at what you enjoy with your kind of people.

Now let's have a toast to ending your dead-end job and to getting out there and doing what you love. My shout.

That was awesome my friend. I totally go along with you. I was over that job. I think I actually survived 2 weeks more than both I and they would like lol. As for the clinking of glasses, I certainly indulged last night. I knew I was not working today so what the heck. Do well, buddy

 

[Free to shine]

In another thread somebody makes a statement to the effect that everything is love. In this dualistic universe, in order for one extreme to exist so must the other for the sake of context. It may seem like "hate" would be the polar opposite of love, but I believe "fear" best fits that bill. This isn't a new idea, but if fear and love are truly the two emotional "colors", then "shame and guilt" are certainly forms of fear, and that's easy to see.

I can't remember who introduced me to this concept, but it has been helpful to me over the years. I think that by recognizing feelings such as "shame" and "guilt" (or jealousy, anger etc) as forms of fear it is easier to let them go.

Everybody has done things that harmed others, and conversely, we have all been harmed by others. How about everyone call it a wash and forgive yourself already?

Forgiveness = Love, Judgmentalism = Fear (and shame and guilt.....).

I like what you said here.

About the only advantage of being a generational scientologist is that I don't feel a sense of shame for getting in in the first place. Even though I was a young teen, I didn't have much choice as the whole family went to Saint Hill.

I do feel embarrased that it took me so long to find the courage to let my friends and family go and walk away, but not shame. Mostly it did manifest as fear ... fear of an unknown future, fear of the inevitable loss, fear I would be unable to cope. And once those fears were faced head on ... well we have a free to shine.

Yes, forgive yourself and let the fears go.

 

[Caroline]

Everybody has done things that harmed others, and conversely, we have all been harmed by others. How about everyone call it a wash and forgive yourself already?

Justice, that's why no wash. LFBD F/N

 

[Man de la Mancha]

I like what you said here.

About the only advantage of being a generational scientologist is that I don't feel a sense of shame for getting in in the first place. Even though I was a young teen, I didn't have much choice as the whole family went to Saint Hill.

I do feel embarrased that it took me so long to find the courage to let my friends and family go and walk away, but not shame. Mostly it did manifest as fear ... fear of an unknown future, fear of the inevitable loss, fear I would be unable to cope. And once those fears were faced head on ... well we have a free to shine.

Yes, forgive yourself and let the fears go.

You waited so long to leave because you love your friends and family and that is nothing to be embarrassed about. I can hardly even imagine having to make that choice and it is why I try to be careful not to equate my experience to that of others on this board. Among other "favorable conditions", I didn't have any family in Scientology so thank God this was never an issue for me.

Out of the SO, my only fear about Scientology was that I'd spend money and it might not work. While in the SO, some of my fears were similar to yours - fear of my own future (uncertainty). Fear of lacking resources to live independently (insecurity). Fear of being "passed up" by my friends back home (envy).

I never felt shame about being a Scientologist. For example, in 1986 I visited home for a week. I went to a party with all my friends from high school and everyone, of course, razzed me about Scientology & the Sea Org. It was mostly good natured and noone got hostile about it.

There was one of those big 80s style projection TVs at the party. It was turned on but with no volume. Around 7:00 p.m. I glanced at the TV and what did I see? A 60 Minutes segment on Scientology was airing! We turned up the TV and watched with great interest. They still thought I was nuts and my best friend threw a beer can at me, but I never felt any shame.

I enforced rice and beans for awhile (GI tripled), but I don't presently feel any guilt about it. I did feel guilty about rice & beans enforcement as I was doing it. On the other hand, I had no choice. That's what the Flag Order said to do and I wanted libs. I also made amends somewhat by giving meal tickets to certain staff with kids (would have done much more of this but it was not always easy to know who you could trust). I also showed one of the non-SO teens how to successfully acquire food from the galley refers (after a couple months he went "off policy" and got caught). I am of the firm belief that anyone who signs a billion year contract should be provided tasty and nutritious food.

I recall feelings of shame and guilt revolving around a single incident involving someone on mission into ASHO. I had just been denied libs and I was pissed. She came into the office and presented $35 for a weekly meal ticket. I asked what org she was with and she just said "ASHO". I refused to sell her a ticket because ASHO hadn't paid its bill to estates (which was one of the reasons I was denied libs). She got upset and tried to explain, and I way overreacted and became very nasty in my denial of the meal ticket. The Treas Sec overheard the confusion and explained why it's OK to sell the missionaire a meal ticket. Still stuck in my "angry mode", I begrudgingly accepted her money. I passed her in the hallway a few days later and I remember feeling shame and embarrassment about my outburst. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe that missionaire was Tory Christman of all people.

 

[Sautez]

Thanks for this thread and this link Gottabrain! My brain and heart are having a lot of fun with this whole subject and that book: Daring Greatly is on the top of my must read list now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is also a wonderful earlier thread about Guilt that I just found:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?6157-Residual-guilt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That is a great thread and what Alanzo had to say as post 13 on p.2 quoted here is simply delicious.

Alanzo wrote:

It's funny that just yesterday I uncovered another guilt-implant from Scientology - after 7 years of being out.

There is an implant in Scientology that if you were involved in any kind of immoral activity, or had committed some kind of overt, then you would believe that you did not DESERVE to survive, and you would sabotage your own happiness and success.

This isn't some MU I had, or some crazy interpretation I dreamed up from my reactive mind, this comes straight out of the essay called "Ethics, Justice and the Dynamics."

Anybody with any sense at all can look around and see that this datum, that a person will stop himself if he commits an overt or is involved in something immoral, is completely false. Your success depends on what you DO, not what you've done, or what you feel guilty or shameful about. Look around you, there are all kinds of happy scumbags rolling in wealth and success.

As I've said before, a Scientologist will often believe in one of Hubbard's "discoveries" (implants) and then dramatize it. And that's what I've been doing to myself since 1985, when I first read this essay on the Introduction to Scientology Ethics course.

My success and my effectiveness has absolutely nothing to do with my past, or how I feel about it. It has to do only with what I do, here and now and in the future.

If you've ever studied interrogation, you know that the interrogator must make the act of confessing appear to have more benefit to you than the consequences you face for the crimes you confess. If the interrogator can not make the act of confessing appear more beneficial to you than avoiding the consequences of confessing (jail time, loss of property, and even execution), then no one would ever confess anything.

So Hubbard gave us all that guilt implant (I do not DESERVE success because I've committed an overt) because, having so many crimes against Scientologists, he became paranoid that he would get found out. He needed to see and hear what everybody was thinking and talking about. He had to document their crimes so he had something on them if they should one day wake up and start telling other people what they realized. And so he had to align the benefits of sec checking with your happiness, success and even immortality.

He connected the benefit of confessing all your "crimes" to your own success and happiness in life. He told you that if you did not confess EVERYTHING, then all kinds of horrible things will befall you, and you will never achieve wealth, happiness and immortality because YOU WILL BELIEVE, DEEP DOWN, THAT YOU DO NOT DESERVE IT AND YOU WILL SABOTAGE YOURSELF (that's the exact implant).

But - through sec checking - you will have all these, as long you tell ALL.

The fact is that if you have committed an overt, or have done something for which you feel shame, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER YOU CAN SUCCEED OR HAVE HAPPINESS IN THE PRESENT OR IN THE FUTURE.

L Ron Hubbard was a sick and cruel human being. And I can't believe I let a person like that so deeply into my mind.

Ethics and morality have nothing to do with success!

Just look at L Ron Hubbard!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was going to only quote part of Alanzo's post and drag it over here but it was just so all-good I wanted to share it with everybody on this thread.

Filled with gratitude and love for all the nice things you have all done to help me and others on this board. I have a lot more to say and will say it in another post.



Sautez

 

[onthepes]

those are excellent points. The best - and worst - thing that happened for me was on the PVI Course. I wrote up overts on an ex of mine (not ex-scientologist just ex-partner). I had a major win. I experienced huge relief and I went from despising her to giving her some flowers and a hug. That win actually stuck with me and that was nearly 8 years ago.
The problem is, like Scientology in general, I never had a win like that again writing up my O/Ws. As you get further involved in Scientology the "Introduction to Scientology Ethics" becomes your bible. You start writing up O/Ws on everything. You even go to the extreme of mocking some up, just to write them.
I recall being in grief over a failed relationship. I was miserable. Staff and visiting Sea Org were getting me to write O/Ws. I was not critical of this other person, but this seemed to be the handling. You see, it was firmly implanted that this was the tech that enabled people to go OT. Now that I reflect on this, I find it hilarious.
All the "handling" on that relationship proved to me is the tremendous shame and guilt that people feel about the 2nd Dynamic. Some struggle with it more than others - I certainly do - and some seem to thrive on that dynamic. I actually wish I understood it more. I can conclusively surmise that Scientology was not the answer to my 2nd Dynamic. I wrote up that much stuff on that dynamic and still got nothing out of it.
I don't care what went into my folder, I don't feel anything about those write-ups. What I do wonder though is "why are those write-ups stapled together and filed away". To me that is disgusting. Why not get the person to either burn them or shred them? They have written them up anyway.
I also believe shame and guilt on the 2nd Dynamic (family, partners, sex) is practically another thread in itself. For now, I guess it can be part of this thread.

 

[sallydannce]

those are excellent points. The best - and worst - thing that happened for me was on the PVI Course. I wrote up overts on an ex of mine (not ex-scientologist just ex-partner). I had a major win. I experienced huge relief and I went from despising her to giving her some flowers and a hug. That win actually stuck with me and that was nearly 8 years ago.
The problem is, like Scientology in general, I never had a win like that again writing up my O/Ws. As you get further involved in Scientology the "Introduction to Scientology Ethics" becomes your bible. You start writing up O/Ws on everything. You even go to the extreme of mocking some up, just to write them.
I recall being in grief over a failed relationship. I was miserable. Staff and visiting Sea Org were getting me to write O/Ws. I was not critical of this other person, but this seemed to be the handling. You see, it was firmly implanted that this was the tech that enabled people to go OT. Now that I reflect on this, I find it hilarious.
All the "handling" on that relationship proved to me is the tremendous shame and guilt that people feel about the 2nd Dynamic. Some struggle with it more than others - I certainly do - and some seem to thrive on that dynamic. I actually wish I understood it more. I can conclusively surmise that Scientology was not the answer to my 2nd Dynamic. I wrote up that much stuff on that dynamic and still got nothing out of it.
I don't care what went into my folder, I don't feel anything about those write-ups. What I do wonder though is "why are those write-ups stapled together and filed away". To me that is disgusting. Why not get the person to either burn them or shred them? They have written them up anyway.
I also believe shame and guilt on the 2nd Dynamic (family, partners, sex) is practically another thread in itself. For now, I guess it can be part of this thread.

Wow! Great stuff onthepes! You have just opened something up for me...

Talk about resonate!

Thank you so much for this post!

 

[smartone]

I'm pissed at myself for wasting 24 years being brain washed.

 

[onthepes]

Sallydance -"Wow! Great stuff onthepes! You have just opened something up for me...

Talk about resonate!

Thank you so much for this post! "

You are most welcome Sallydance. It helped me out writing it too.

 

[Caroline]

This is spectacular, Caroline. You could write an academic paper on this. Thanks so much.

I will comment further on your post later tonight, I'm a bit short of time right now. Food for thought. Yours was a seriously outstanding, revelatory post.

Most welcome, Gottabrain! This topic is very meaningful, and I'm glad for the opportunity.

Here's a sampling of Hubbard's basic "tech" on shame. He used what he knew of it to control and manipulate us from the entry level of Scientology all the way to the top of the Bridge.

In the Chart of Attitudes, given in Handbook for Preclears, Hubbard placed Shame as an emotion at the level of "Grief." He was obviously aware of how shame functions in groups.

Shame or embarrassment are emotions peculiar to groups or interpersonal relations and are on a level with grief, denoting loss of position in a group.

Hubbard, L. (1951). Handbook for Preclears. Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, Inc.

Hubbard was also aware of how shame functions to split the personality, similar to what Dr. Judith Herman observed (Ref. Wikipedia: Shame).

SHAME, 1. effect one creates is unworthy, shouldn't have done it. (HCOB 6 Feb 60) 2. being other bodies, that's shame. There is an emotion of shame connected with being other bodies; one is ashamed to be oneself, he is somebody else. (5904C08)

BEING OTHER BODIES, 1. out of valence; being another identity than his own. He's in one body and he's being another body. (5904COB) 2. that's shame. There is an emotion of shame connected with being other bodies. One is ashamed to be oneself, he is somebody else. (5904COB)

Hubbard, L. (1975) Dianetics and Scientology Technical Dictionary. Los Angeles: Church of Scientology of California

"Being out of valence" is a critically important case problem that Scientologists monitor at all levels, and address with a wide array of processes and programs. For example, the NOTs process for blowing BTs is key valence tech at OT 5 and above. The NOTs valence process consists of two questions that Pre-OTs get their BTs to answer: "What are you?" and "Who are you?" These questions of course relate to existential questions at the 13-19 year stage. (Wikipedia: Erikson Stages of Psychosocial Development)

In terms of the OCA, "down on the left" means "Out of Valence" and must be handled accordingly.(Ref. Lecture: Expanded Dianetics 30 March 1972. XDN-1, 7203C30).

Hubbard used the presentation of shame as a situation that required giving orders to the person presenting it!

At 0.5 we would have shame, anxiety, strong doubt of one's own reality with a consequent inability to act within it. If the person is to act at all, he must be told what to do. He is afraid to act of himself, since he has no way to assess the consequences.

Hubbard, L. (1951). Science of Survival. Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, Inc.

According to Hubbard's "Chart of Human Evaluation," people in shame use this method to interact with others: "Enturbulates others in order to control them. Cries for pity. Wild lying to gain sympathy."

Hubbard expanded the tone scale in 1971, and reduced or downgraded "Shame" (Being other Bodies) to -0.2, below Death. No wonder Scientologists suppress their shame. Imo, getting over shame has to include jettisoning Hubbard's shame tech.