David Miscavige's abuses and violence

[degraded being]

QUOTE FROM KAREN to GADFLY:
"....Therefore it was inappropriate of me to have selected a Message Board forum when I had no desire to "play by the rules" or what was expected of me. The fault was mine, and I am responsible. I think I did *try* ~~ My early posts coming out, I did try harder than most Indies to mingle some.

But when all is said and done, I had to follow my purpose which is to whistle blow on abuses, (to bring an end to them) not to sword fence which can naturally occur in a free-for-all forum........."
*****************************************************************

Karen, I would like to point out that I also rarely "debate", much less have an actual "conversation". Now, yes, I do sometimes, but for the most part what I do is post what I think about something. I might do so in repsonse to a post, I might start a thread, or I might go off on some tangent. I tend to use existing posts and threads as springboards to express my own observations about Hubbard or Scientology.

I don't think these boards function much as "discussion", no matter what they might be called. Posters say what they think, and other posters respond with what they think. Sometimes that "appears" to be a discussion.

"Debate" almost NEVER occurs.

So, really, as I see it, you fit in JUST FINE.

I don't expect others to answer anything, and really, for me, I come here to get "inspired" by what I see in other posts. Generally, I use existing posts to prod my memories, or stream of associations, so as to nudge me into thinking along some avenue.

People "use" ESMB for many different reasons. Your reason is your reason, and I have NEVER seen any problem with it. This place will be all the poorer without you.

If you ever decide to smile again in our direction with your EXCELLENT write-ups, I will appreciate it.

I suppose I can be hard on people who still adhere to a bit too much of Hubbard, but we were each THERE at some point. I do understand.

I think that a lot of discussion is going on here on ESMB> But I, (like you Gad) don't see that anyone is compelled to discuss or debate or ought to be. So I think Karen's quote, (above) misses the point. She can put up whatever she likes and comment or not comment about it or about anything she chooses, excepting things like success stories or things truly against rules. The thing is, people here will respond, comment, and challenge if they feel like it. She can choose to go on not responding to that, but that can intensify the challenge. Karen did not do anything "inappropriate". Like others here, I appreciate all the anti DM and COS stuff that Karen has put up here and all the stuff she does offline. Accepting "responsibilty" for being "inappropriate", gives Karen a nice "out" for not finding widespread and unthinking acceptance of her attacks on DM and the COS. Of course we all love them, and they are helping to achieve what most here want to achieve, but they have a definte party-approved-propaganda flavor; Karen's party and whoever else is in it. Good luck to her and them with that (sincerely, up to a point), but there are lots of different parties here -many of them are a party of one- so other party lines will not be consumed without questioning.

If Karen's "inappropriateness" is not really inappropriate, she could come back and continue where she left off. But I doubt that she will do that very soon in a forum where her beliefs might be questioned. How does anyone really get out of the cult if they don't do that?

 

[Axiom142]

I haven’t been keeping up to date with everything happening on ESMB, so I may have missed something here.

I am very sad to hear that Karen may have left ESMB.

But, I can understand the reasons, I think.

It must be very difficult for someone who stills believes in the Tech to be a member on what is predominantly a critical forum. Anyone who defends anything to do with Scientology is generally shouted down very quickly and this saddens me because I’d like to see a lot more tolerance for the views of others. That doesn’t mean that you can’t disagree with them, you can still do so, but perhaps a bit more courtesy and understanding wouldn’t go amiss. Not everyone has as thick a skin as me and sometimes personal comments and criticisms can be very hurtful.

Karen, I hope you find a way to express yourself and achieve your goals. You have shown courage, fortitude and above all, compassion.

Good luck,

Axiom142

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

If Karen's "inappropriateness" is not really inappropriate, she could come back and continue where she left off. But I doubt that she will do that very soon in a forum where her beliefs might be questioned. How does anyone really get out of the cult if they don't do that?

When I was in Scientology, I was not trying to get "out of the cult".

I was doing my damndest to get further in.

They called that 'going up the Bridge'.

 

[jenni with an eye]

DM was a product of LRH. Nobody has to post anything about that. But I just did.

Karen is posting these abuses more for the spiders of google, for Congressional staff members, prosecutors, deputy sheriffs, etc. than to be, either preaching to the choir or engaging unseemly disputes that just muddle some government staffers' research assignment.

No cop or Congressman is going to care if LRH or MSH were involved in criminal activity 30 years ago. If a law is going to be written, a committee drawn to question folk, or arrests to be made, it ain't gonna be on dead people!

Karen has so much wanted to highlight the horrid ongoing abuses in organized scientology on both here and xenu.net and has had excellent threads on same that hopefully internet spiders will find and can be used by authorities to help them take action against the abuses.

Like many of us Karen is experiencing the freedom to speak out now and it is liberating. But, IMO, the constant attack on her beliefs she is getting on here and on xenu.net is too much for her right now in her current stage of trying to heal herself, especially in threads where she was only trying to highlight current abuses in an attempt to help others and to get action taken.

Our free speech, no matter how it may differ from that of others or even hurt, is so very important and must not be abridged.

I suppose I can be hard on people who still adhere to a bit too much of Hubbard, but we were each THERE at some point. I do understand.

I don't see how agreeing with, or reinforcing, that perception assists her in her recovery from the dark side of Scientology. Anyone can examine the content of this thread, and of ESMB, and decide if Karen was or was not under "constant attack."

I have reviewed this thread and the welcome that Karen received when she first arrived here.

I do feel that she was 'attacked'.

I'm very sorry to see that a genuine caring person like Karen, that has so much valuable information that she is willing to share, is 'bullied' in such a way as to possibly feel she is not welcome to speak freely.

We all have our own opinions and we all on some occasions may even think our own opinions are right and all else is wrong.

However, trying to push, assert, bully our own ideas and thoughts upon others is, IMO, not fair and denies many others of the true value of our own individual stories from within the cofs.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I have reviewed this thread and the welcome that Karen received when she first arrived here.

I do feel that she was 'attacked'.

I'm very sorry to see that a genuine caring person like Karen, that has so much valuable information that she is willing to share, is 'bullied' in such a way as to possibly feel she is not welcome to speak freely.

We all have our own opinions and we all on some occasions may even think our own opinions are right and all else is wrong.

However, trying to push, assert, bully our own ideas and thoughts upon others is, IMO, not fair and denies many others of the true value of our own individual stories from within the cofs.

I don't agree with you or my friend Karen that "attacked" is the right word.

I think "provoked" is a better description. Here's why.

I looked at who I might be seen as "attacking" on this board. There are only a couple people who I do that with, Indie Scientologists Mark Baker and Sneakster. Maybe on rare occasion Leon too.

I had to honestly ask myself if I am attacking them. Maybe from their perspective I am.

From where I sit (and type, lol) I sometimes read their post and ask them a very simple and direct question--to which they simply do not respond. Maybe they have me on "ignore" the way Karen had Veda on ignore, don't know.

On the other hand, I have seen Baker post some nasty little remark to something I have posted, so he apparently must be reading some of the things I post here.

Not getting any response leads one to the conclusion that someone is being rude or has something to hide. That, in turn, causes a stronger demand for an answer. In fact, the inquirer usually dedicates a fair amount of craft to re-asking the same question in a more provocative way--so as to PROVOKE an answer.

The insistent "prodding" is not well received by the person not wishing to answer questions. It escalates. The quiet party begins to perceive they are "being attacked" when they are merely being provoked to answer.

As the intensity of the provocations grows, the person becomes more convinced that they are under attack. It proves their point.

But of course it would have been simpler in the first place just to answer the question and let people move on.

Want to see how this all works? Okay, I'll demonstrate LOLOLOLOL

Hey Sneakster, how come you keep asserting that you know who the OSA plants are in ESMB but then you refuse to say who they are? How come you say you are on mission here to handle ESMB'ers over-restimulation from OSA sock puppets but you never tell us who our over-restimulation is coming from?

See how I try to provoke him?

Am I attacking him? (If you think so, please be sure to have both of your e-meters fully charged so that you can handle the over-restimulation that HelluvaOSAsockpuppet is causing you)

 

[TheSneakster]

Did I understand correctly that Karen, only a year and a half ago, was working at OSA on Hollywood Blvd.?

(if that is correct)

I don't recall Karen De La Carriere ever making such a statement.

Citation, please ?

According to her public announcement of her departure from Co$ dated June 30, 2010, she hasn't worked at OSA International since 1987 and left the Sea Org entirely in 1990.

on the telephone with her ( I had a lot of noise in the background. I didn't get into a QnA)

Sneakster, your answer was plenty straight forward. I obviously miss heard.

Evidently. I wrote Karen to ask about this and obtained her permission to post her response here:

[highlight]
Dear Michael,

Thank you for the Email. I routed out of the Sea Org in 1990, but remained a "Good"
toe-the-line Scientologist til 2009. Giving them significant sums of money (High six figures)
attending all the events....actually I walked out of the Basics event, walked right out as I couldn't take the twaddle and baloney.

in 2009 my disaffection became known. I was already speaking out against the ABUSES and ATROCITIES internally and on Heber's lock down in SP hole.

Alexander's birthdays came and went and no call to say Happy Birthday. Heber was not allowed to pick up the phone to call his son to say Happy Birthday ! I won't tell you how this pained Alexander but it started giving me the wake up call I badly needed.

in 2009 and 2010 I had a lot of visits from Church Top Guns pleading with me
to "stay loyal to the Mother Church." They knew I was drifting away.....

I knew they would turn Alexander (my only child) against me. It is hard to walk away from every comm line and infra-structure of one's life of the last 35 years and Marty and Mike helped me significantly. (35 year friendships) I would even go so far as to say without them, I might even be in some miserable corner toeing the line to this day, because I did not want to lose my son in disonnection.

I worked at OSA INT from 1982 to 1987.
<Name Redacted>'s statement of working for OSA up to a year ago and that I told him that is false and 100% inaccurate.
I never said any such thing on the phone ! God Almighty !
I did do some OSA volunteer work in 1995 and Graham Berry and I will choose the time and place we reveal it all.

But no work for or with OSA since that 1995 episode.
Thanks Michael !
I wish you and your family all good things in this Christmas Season.
love/Karen [/highlight]​

 

[jenni with an eye]

Not getting any response leads one to the conclusion that someone is being rude or has something to hide.

Or maybe one uses their own individual freedom of choice and simply decides that maybe an A - J is applicable:

A) question is not worthy of answer

B) ridiculous question why bother

C) have more important things to do

D) asked and answered

E) information already submitted

F) can't be bother to do the work for the asker

G)

H)

I)

J):smoking:

 

[Panda Termint]

HH, You may have missed Karen's original "Welcome To ESMB", some of the commentary was more than a little hostile from some quarters. Still, she's a big girl and took it all in her stride up to a point. To be honest, I'm surprised she put up with the constant questioning and "provocation" as long as she did here. IMO, she's one tough and determined lady. Kudos to her.

 

[Free to shine]

The very truth hath a color from the disposition of the utterer.

GEORGE ELIOT, Felix Holt

Not everything that's true needs to be said.

CASSANDRA CLARE, City of Bones

The heart is an artist that paints over what profoundly disturbs us, leaving on the canvas a less dark, less sharp version of the truth.

DEAN KOONTZ, Forever Odd

Truth is a torch, but a huge one, and so it is only with blinking eyes what we all of us try to get past it, in actual terror of being burnt.

JOHANN WOLFGANG VON GOETHE, The Maxims and Reflections of Goethe

Karen,

I feel very strongly about my own truth as does every one of us. It's a very hot topic -- scorching, like a hot potato, no...more like a red hot smoldering piece of iron, held by one, to brand another. It's too hot to touch sometimes and especially too hot to adequately deal with through words, between souls and hearts unseen, across the cold and sometimes unforgiving medium of a message board -- a message board filled with those who all have that one unwieldy thing in common -- the desire for truth.

Please forgive and try to understand. In the end, most none of what is said here is truly ever personal. How could it be when most do not know of whom they speak? It's more about the truth and lies. It's hot. Too flaming hot to handle. The pain from being burned by either one -- a truth or a once-believed untruth -- is enough to drive us all quite mad, searching for that perfect middle ground where every thing makes sense enough to carry on.

I'm sorry that you felt the need to go. Hell, I feel that way almost every week and have many times announced the fact though never really gave the reason why and now I know, upon reflection, that the truth was just too hot to handle.

Namaste and may each and every one us find the inner peace that we desire.

Love, Synthia

I really really like this post.

 

[TheSneakster]

Hey Sneakster, how come you keep asserting that you know who the OSA plants are in ESMB but then you refuse to say who they are?

That is a 100% false claim and, I believe, a deliberate misrepresentation on your part, HelluvaHoax.

I have never once claimed I knew for certain exactly which identities are or are not OSA minions or sockpuppets on ESMB or anywhere else. To have access to that information, I would have to be working directly with OSA Internet I/C, now wouldn't I?

Even if I did somehow have that information and were not working for OSA, the only person on ESMB who would need to know is Emma - whom I would provide full supporting documentation were I ever to positively identify an OSA minion or sockpuppet. It would then be incumbent upon her to decide what to do about it and whether to inform the general membership.

 

[Smilla]

Some of the people I like the most on ESMB are people who I rarely agree with on the subject of Scientology. I've always found Karen to be a delightful person - gracious, warm, loving and kind. I don't share her view of Scientology, but I respect and admire her greatly.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

That is a 100% false claim and, I believe, a deliberate misrepresentation on your part, HelluvaHoax.

I have never once claimed I knew for certain exactly which identities are or are not OSA minions or sockpuppets on ESMB or anywhere else. To have access to that information, I would have to be working directly with OSA Internet I/C, now wouldn't I?

Even if I did somehow have that information and were not working for OSA, the only person on ESMB who would need to know is Emma - whom I would provide full supporting documentation were I ever to positively identify an OSA minion or sockpuppet. It would then be incumbent upon her to decide what to do about it and whether to inform the general membership.

Oh! So you didn't have me on "ignore" and you really have been avoiding the questions, as I suggested.

Thanks for proving my point that provocation eventually results in a response.

It took me several months and countless provocations to get you to answer a simple question.

There was no deliberate misrepresentation by me. But nice try shifting the "attack". LOL

And as far as your stated mission to handle over-restimulation in ESMB'ers, you badly misrepresented both the people here on ESMB and your own imagined powers.

Your position is ludicrous. You boldly claim that there are OSA operatives on ESMB enturbulating ("over-restimulating") the people on ESMB. But later (now) you claim you don't know who they are. Absurd.

I asked you many times WHO was over-restimulated and WHO you handled. You never answered those either.

Helpful Hint: Your mission has failed. Your tech didn't work (again). Try to figure out why.

 

[Free to shine]

I've no doubt that Lovinglife625 wrote form the heart, and I respect him, and his feelings, and it may even be that Karen perceives herself to have been under "constant attack" on this thread, or on ESMB, since she first started posting over a year ago, but I don't see how agreeing with, or reinforcing, that perception assists her in her recovery from the dark side of Scientology. Anyone can examine the content of this thread, and of ESMB, and decide if Karen was or was not under "constant attack." IMO, that's an unfortunate choice of words. Then again, I also disagree with her characterization of myself as being part of an "orchestrated hate campaign," and, as I wrote on the post addressing that allegation, I wish her well.

I have every sympathy with someone trying to find their feet and balance after leaving scientology, but as we know, questioning and disagreement is often seen as "attack" when it isn't. I think it takes time and exposure to many different opinions until we find our own comfort level and it is a totally individual thing.

You however have been under attack and I admire your ability to keep on posting the truth about Hubbard despite it. Sometimes I wondered if you were doing it too often on this thread, but who is to be the judge of that? Not me. This whole concept of an "orchestrated hate campaign" stinks to high heaven and like Synthia, I can confirm you are not a 'back channel kind of guy' after many years here.

Let's all keep on exposing the abuses in our own ways, every bit helps.

 

[Smilla]

Oh! So you didn't have me on "ignore" and you really have been avoiding the questions, as I suggested.

Thanks for proving my point that provocation eventually results in a response.

It took me several months and countless provocations to get you to answer a simple question.

There was no deliberate misrepresentation by me. But nice try shifting the "attack". LOL

And as far as your stated mission to handle over-restimulation in ESMB'ers, you badly misrepresented both the people here on ESMB and your own imagined powers.

Your position is ludicrous. You boldly claim that there are OSA operatives on ESMB enturbulating ("over-restimulating") the people on ESMB. But later (now) you claim you don't know who they are. Absurd.

I asked you many times WHO was over-restimulated and WHO you handled. You never answered those either.

Helpful Hint: Your mission has failed. Your tech didn't work (again). Try to figure out why.

[FONT=arial,helvetica,geneva]Checkmate. The pieces can go back in the box now.


[/FONT]

 

[TheSneakster]

Your position is ludicrous. You boldly claim that there are OSA operatives on ESMB enturbulating ("over-restimulating") the people on ESMB. But later (now) you claim you don't know who they are. Absurd.

You have no idea how immensely pleased I am that I have never acquired the degree of skill you have at spin doctoring.

I am under no slightest obligation to respond to malicious spin from you or anyone else. I long ago gave up all attempts to conduct any sort of straight-up dialog with you, HH.

Until such a time as you cease to falsely attribute spun, altered and/or twisted statements to me, we have nothing to discuss. Even in your non-responsive reply above, you once again falsely attributed a quote to me.

If you have some objection to stated opinion of mine, at least accurately represent that statement, would you kindly ?

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

...

Originally Posted by TheSneakster

Even if I did somehow have that information and were not working for OSA, the only person on ESMB who would need to know is Emma - whom I would provide full supporting documentation were I ever to positively identify an OSA minion or sockpuppet. It would then be incumbent upon her to decide what to do about it and whether to inform the general membership.

...


Keep working on finding those OSA minions and sock puppets Sneakster, I think you on hot on their trail!

This should help.....

This week at ToysRUs there is a sale on kid's SpyGear...

And it includes some super-spy detection goggles!

SPECIAL NOTE TO OSA MINIONS & SOCKPUPPETS: Now that ESMB has Sneakster to safeguard us, your days of over-restimulating us at ESMB are numbered! Man, I sure wouldn't want to be you when Sneakster catches you and starts writing backchannel KRs!

 

[Smilla]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,geneva] WHAT IS A ROLE-PLAYING GAME?

[/FONT] According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a role-playing game (abbreviated RPG) is "a game in which players take on the roles of imaginary characters, usually in a setting created by a referee, and thereby vicariously experience the imagined adventures of these characters.''

http://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/#others

 

[GreyWolf]

Hoaxie, You gotta stop re-stimulating him. He is going to have to take a trip to Marty's place for another 12 1/2 hour intensive.

 

[Jachs]

[FONT=arial,helvetica,geneva] WHAT IS A ROLE-PLAYING GAME?

[/FONT] According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a role-playing game (abbreviated RPG) is "a game in which players take on the roles of imaginary characters, usually in a setting created by a referee, and thereby vicariously experience the imagined adventures of these characters.''

http://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/#others

This says it very nicely.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Originally Posted by HelluvaHoax!
Your position is ludicrous. You boldly claim that there are OSA operatives on ESMB enturbulating ("over-restimulating") the people on ESMB. But later (now) you claim you don't know who they are. Absurd.

You have no idea how immensely pleased I am that I have never acquired the degree of skill you have at spin doctoring.

I am under no slightest obligation to respond to malicious spin from you or anyone else. I long ago gave up all attempts to conduct any sort of straight-up dialog with you, HH.

Until such a time as you cease to falsely attribute spun, altered and/or twisted statements to me, we have nothing to discuss. Even in your non-responsive reply above, you once again falsely attributed a quote to me.

If you have some objection to stated opinion of mine, at least accurately represent that statement, would you kindly ?

Malicious spin?

Here is your own quote, Sneakster. Read it and cringe if Scn hasn't taken that ability away from you:

"...I post on ESMB occasionally in some (perhaps foolish) effort to keep OSA minions from keeping the people there continually in restimulation.

"Right now, in present time, there are OSA socks running black Scientology programs on these guys to keep them stirred up against anyone who might be a threat to McSavage..."

It's one of the things that I hate about Scientology. When Scientologists are caught lying, they lie about it.