For the Rathbun "Believers"

[Type4_PTS]

If you don't believe me look at my Solo Nots folder.

 

[Lulu Belle]

IMO, the problem here with the Independents and or Freezoners is not the fact that they will be forming groups that are free from abuse, but the potential will always be there for it no matter how you draw it.

"The Greatest Good, for the Greatest Number of Dynamics" is part and parcel of Scientology weather we like it or not. That phrase has been used to actually justify and kill people i.e., Lisa McPherson and others in the past. Just like Marty ordered the destruction of files/documents that would have been damaging to the Church in the McPherson case. The people held in the RPF or against their wills. The disconnection of families. The infiltration of the US governement. The lying and shady operations. All of these were done under the guise of "TGGFTGNODs." That was always Hubbard. You can't get rid of it. And it will continue to fester destructive and abusive actions by its own nature.

That is of course unless I'm missing some point of FZ and Independents logic. Do they believe that Scientology is the ONLY answer for mankind? And that if Scientology doesn't make it world wide we will all meet our ultimate demise eventually? That's what Hubbard strongly believed and that's why TGGFGNODs was enforced and why so many things were justified in the name of Scientology.

Arguably, Scientology is not the only religion or cult (I'm one of those who fails to see the difference with a lot of them) to fall into this category.

The reality is that you are not going to get rid of religion. And, IMO, religion makes otherwise rational people not so rational. All of them. The degree of "not so rational" depends a lot on the person and the beliefs, but it's always somewhere on that spectrum of sane to crazy.

All you can really do is do what you can to regulate the abuses. Trying to "fight" people believing that all their problems are caused by dead space aliens is like trying to "fight" people believing that a guy rose from the dead after 3 days.

People are gonna believe what they want to believe.

 

[Alanzo]

Arguably, Scientology is not the only religion or cult (I'm one of those who fails to see the difference with a lot of them) to fall into this category.

The reality is that you are not going to get rid of religion. And, IMO, religion makes otherwise rational people not so rational. All of them. The degree of "not so rational" depends a lot on the person and the beliefs, but it's always somewhere on that spectrum of sane to crazy.

All you can really do is do what you can to regulate the abuses. Trying to "fight" people believing that all their problems are caused by dead space aliens is like trying to "fight" people believing that a guy rose from the dead after 3 days.

People are gonna believe what they want to believe.

That's right.

And what it takes for society to force them to stop believing those things is far worse than what comes from their own irrational actions based on their irrational religious teachings.

The problem is that, in the United States anyway, religions get away with actual crimes, and with acts that no business or corporation, or even government agency, would ever get a way with.

If, when it come to religions, a crime for a corporation is a crime for a religion, too, then that leads the way to a much better solution in the long run than trying to ban or forbid anyone's religion or religious belief.

Religions in the United States have been "more equal" than everybody else in society for far too long - especially the Church of Scientology.

 

[Terril park]

IMO, the problem here with the Independents and or Freezoners is not the fact that they will be forming groups that are free from abuse, but the potential will always be there for it no matter how you draw it.

"The Greatest Good, for the Greatest Number of Dynamics" is part and parcel of Scientology weather we like it or not. That phrase has been used to actually justify and kill people i.e., Lisa McPherson and others in the past. Just like Marty ordered the destruction of files/documents that would have been damaging to the Church in the McPherson case. The people held in the RPF or against their wills. The disconnection of families. The infiltration of the US governement. The lying and shady operations. All of these were done under the guise of "TGGFTGNODs." That was always Hubbard. You can't get rid of it. And it will continue to fester destructive and abusive actions by its own nature.

That is of course unless I'm missing some point of FZ and Independents logic. Do they believe that Scientology is the ONLY answer for mankind? And that if Scientology doesn't make it world wide we will all meet our ultimate demise eventually? That's what Hubbard strongly believed and that's why TGGFGNODs was enforced and why so many things were justified in the name of Scientology.

I believe most freezoners believe scientology is the only answer for
mankind. They do not subscribe to the view that ends justify any means.
In fact most have been victims of such ideas. COS,OSA with all their resources have been able to find just about nothing to indict the FZ with
other than the nonsense on this website, a companion to religious freedom
watch.

http://www.freezonesurvivors.to/

Anyone has any questions re matters on this website I know most of the answers. Below for example.

" His human rights were violated because he didn't get a receipt for books he bought."

 

[Carmel]

<snip>
Those scientologists who have friendship and cameradie with critics are not so common, and most I believe are on this forum. They appear to share a quality of not being overmuch bothered by insults etc.

I for one appreciate your presence here on this board. I like you and respect you.

As ya know, I've pointed many in the direction of ESMB, because for those looking, or newly out, there'd be people of like mind, and there would always be support in one form or other, wherever one may 'sit'.

Last year, when I started looking on the net, and signed up here, I was so thankful for you "Freezoners" or "pro techies" (who seemed very few at the time), 'cause ya had perspectives similar to my own back then, and were supportive. You guys were at one extreme and Veda (for example) was at another. I couldn't handle Veda's posts back then, 'cause to me he came down like a ton of bricks (and still does), but he had data, and provided links to info which gave me food for thought. Despite me getting the willies if and when I saw Veda had responded to one of my posts, I could respect where he was coming from too.

Even with you at one extreme, and someone like Veda at the other, it was apparent that neither of you were crapping on, but rather, passionate about your beliefs and sharing them. I still believe today, that generally, both perspectives have validity, and your sharing of them, has been a help/support to those looking and/or newly "outs" - I'd say good on you, and good on everyone who has and does, despite flak they may cop for doing so.

I'll always have ya as a 'comrade' Terril, despite any disagreements on the Marty or any other issue - Your heart is in a good place, and that among other things counts for bucket-loads.

 

[Carmel]

<snipped for brevity>

So to the supporters of Rathbun I ask: Are we going to do this again?


Adieu,
The Anabaptist Jacques

TAJ, as I said on the FCDC thread, great post - Looking forward to good news regarding your recovery, and having ya back here.

 

[Carmel]

If you consider that Marty is trying to get people out of COS he is
doing the right thing.

I don't consider that he is. I consider that he is just trying to get them out of one camp, and put them into another.......but this time, his 'own'. Both camps stink, IMO.

<snip>
If getting people out of COS is deemed a good thing, he is going about it the right way.

Nup, not in my books. The St Pete's articles are one thing, and tell a story. I can grant that a 'strategy' in regard to media is a good thing. However, his blog tells quite a different story. He's not trying to get them out of the CofS at all it would seem - He's just trying to get them to change camps. To me he is an example of and is forwarding, those things about the CofS and Scientology which should be exposed and terminated.

 

[Terril park]

I for one appreciate your presence here on this board. I like you and respect you.

As ya know, I've pointed many in the direction of ESMB, because for those looking, or newly out, there'd be people of like mind, and there would always be support in one form or other, wherever one may 'sit'.

Last year, when I started looking on the net, and signed up here, I was so thankful for you "Freezoners" or "pro techies" (who seemed very few at the time), 'cause ya had perspectives similar to my own back then, and were supportive. You guys were at one extreme and Veda (for example) was at another. I couldn't handle Veda's posts back then, 'cause to me he came down like a ton of bricks (and still does), but he had data, and provided links to info which gave me food for thought. Despite me getting the willies if and when I saw Veda had responded to one of my posts, I could respect where he was coming from too.

Even with you at one extreme, and someone like Veda at the other, it was apparent that neither of you were crapping on, but rather, passionate about your beliefs and sharing them. I still believe today, that generally, both perspectives have validity, and your sharing of them, has been a help/support to those looking and/or newly "outs" - I'd say good on you, and good on everyone who has and does, despite flak they may cop for doing so.

I'll always have ya as a 'comrade' Terril, despite any disagreements on the Marty or any other issue - Your heart is in a good place, and that among other things counts for bucket-loads.

Thanks.

Well I've spoken to you. A priviledge. I believe all know your heart is in the right place. I do. Geez!!! in spades.

She who is adored!

I'd like to speak to Veda by phone which I can probably do for free.

Try and persuade him to PM his number.

Hopefully here you may become "she who must be obeyed."

Speaking as one of the many in love.

 

[byte301]

Folks,

It is very difficult for me to write this as I have been in the hospital and am very ill. I haven’t been able to read much of this, or any other thread. And this may be the last thing I write for a long time to come. So here goes:

Proverb:

Fool Alonzo once; shame on you.
Fool Alonzo twice; then you must be Marty Rathbun.

Marty Rathburn is Scientology’s version of Hermann Goering. I just saw him on Nightline and the way he talked and acted he reminded me of Goering and Ribbentrop on trial at Nuremberg. I don’t think anyone who was a victim of the Nazis needed to hear and join with Goering in order to understand that Hitler was bad. Why should anyone trust Goering?

I know it is a cliché to compare Miscavige and Scientology to Hitler and the Nazis, but I do it here for clarity of emphasis, not to compare degrees of evil.

If Miscavige had left Scientology and then complained about Rathbun who was now the head, would you consider Miscavige a friend?

A pox on both their houses. Miscavige and Rathbun are opposite sides of the same coin. And it is a bad penny.

Just expose Scientology for what it is; you don’t have to set up another cult of personality to do that.

In fact, when you support Rathbun you’re just helping to further the insidious aims of those people (like Miscavige or Rathbun) who wish to control and manipulate others. Rathbun has an impressive record of doing so.

Scientology is an effective tool for these kinds of people; they still use the methods of Scientology to control and manipulate people, just like Rathbun is now doing.

The destructive and evil element is Scientology. It is a tool for all would-be dictators. Don’t think by backing one dictator over another you will stop their destructive behavior.

Don’t take you eye off the ball and don’t get misdirected by siding with one punk over the other. Rathbun had his heel on the throats of many good people and he crushed them, and he did this for over twenty-five years.

For those supporters of Rathbun, I just want to show this scene from a film where the defense lawyer (Maximillian Schell) for a Nazi judge (Burt Lancaster) distorts the truth to defend the perverse justice of the Nazis. The defendant who earlier had suffered injustice at the hands of the Nazis is Judy Garland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HP1oiEhgaE

So to the supporters of Rathbun I ask: Are we going to do this again?


Adieu,
The Anabaptist Jacques

TAJ, you said exactly what I've been thinking.

I wish you a very speedy recovery and hope to see you back soon.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Marty. Her name was Lisa McPherson. She was a human being, Marty, not just another dev-t PR flap that you had to handle.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

IMO, the problem here with the Independents and or Freezoners is not the fact that they will be forming groups that are free from abuse, but the potential will always be there for it no matter how you draw it.

The potential to do wrong is present in any human being in any situation.

"The Greatest Good, for the Greatest Number of Dynamics" is part and parcel of Scientology weather we like it or not. That phrase has been used to actually justify and kill people i.e., Lisa McPherson and others in the past. Just like Marty ordered the destruction of files/documents that would have been damaging to the Church in the McPherson case. The people held in the RPF or against their wills. The disconnection of families. The infiltration of the US governement. The lying and shady operations. All of these were done under the guise of "TGGFTGNODs." That was always Hubbard. You can't get rid of it. And it will continue to fester destructive and abusive actions by its own nature.

Frankly, I don't consider killing someone or committing egregious criminal negligence the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.

That is of course unless I'm missing some point of FZ and Independents logic.

At this point, I'm wondering how many times people need to tell you there isn't just one mindset amongst non CofS Scn'ists and that it's not a centralized RTC type thing.

Do they believe that Scientology is the ONLY answer for mankind?

Some do, some don't. See above.

(snip more ridiculous typecasting)

 

[Alanzo]

Frankly, I don't consider killing someone or committing egregious criminal negligence the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.

Then you haven't thought about it very much.

When you isolate the dynamic of the individual to only one 8th of the equation, and you even give worms 1 vote (fifth D) and rocks 1 vote (6th D), as well as your *own* interpretation of the greatest good for mankind, and "groups", (while leaving out anyone else's interpretation of the greatest good) then you have actually destroyed the person's moral sense of responsibility to his fellow man, and to everything else.

The Greatest Good for the Greatest Number of Dynamics is the worst way to try to make an ethical or moral decision.

It is useful only for ruthless totalitarian groups, and it never produces sane or rational decision-making for the long haul.

Witness the Church of Scientology.

It runs on the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.

Is that enough, or do you need more?

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Then you haven't thought about it very much.

When you isolate the dynamic of the individual to only one 8th of the equation, and you even give worms 1 vote (fifth D) and rocks 1 vote (6th D), as well as your *own* interpretation of the greatest good for mankind, and "groups", (while leaving out anyone else's interpretation of the greatest good) then you have actually destroyed the person's moral sense of responsibility to his fellow man, and to everything else.

The Greatest Good for the Greatest Number of Dynamics is the worst way to try to make an ethical or moral decision.

It is useful only for ruthless totalitarian groups, and it never produces sane or rational decision-making for the long haul.

Witness the Church of Scientology.

It runs on the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.

Is that enough, or do you need more?

I don't need more to see that you're incorrect on this.

 

[Ladybird]

I don't need more to see that you're incorrect on this.

OK fine Fluffy. You are the only one who understands scientology and you escaped unscathed. If only we were all as smart as you we would have been able to pick the raisens out of the cowpies too.


Do you have a clue how stupid and offensive you come across to people who actually believed that Hubbard shite?

You were a dilettante scientologist and now you are a dilettante critic.

Dilittante: noun: an amateur who engages in an activity without serious intentions and who pretends to have knowledge.

You might start by re-reading your own posts and then using google to find out some facts.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

(NSFW)

OK fine Fluffy. You are the only one who understands scientology and you escaped unscathed. If only we were all as smart as you we would have been able to pick the raisens out of the cowpies too.

I have a right to my own opinion. People can tell me I'm wrong about things and I have the right to disagree. Just as you do.

Do you have a clue how stupid and offensive you come across to people who actually believed that Hubbard shite?

Well, I know I'm reporting your post.

You were a dilettante scientologist and now you are a dilettante critic.

Neither is or was the case.

Dilittante: noun: an amateur who engages in an activity without serious intentions and who pretends to have knowledge.

I can think of some words I can define for you, too. Try me.

You might start by re-reading your own posts and then using google to find out some facts.

Feel free to do the same.

What he sings in the last minute is quite apt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuOAY-S6OY

 

[Alanzo]

I don't need more to see that you're incorrect on this.

All right. Since this is important, here's some more anyway.

Let's see if you are willing to discuss the idea that you yourself brought up.

You said,

"Frankly, I don't consider killing someone or committing egregious criminal negligence the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics."

The way LRH made it easy for Scientologists to abandon their own self interests was by making the First dynamic, the dynamic of Self, only 1/8th of the "greatest good".

Can you see how the equation of "the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics" does that?

 

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

I was a cult leader to over 8 million Scientologists who literally followed me everywhere. But, as Hubbard experienced, they all likewise betrayed me and blew.

If you don't believe me look at my Solo Nots folder.

Welcome back ron at least your name is more revealing this time but hard to spell so I'll just shorten it to HH

 

[Iknowtoomuch]

See Fluffy, you jump into defending Scientology AT ALL TIMES and as much as you can. Even when you know you're going to get shit for it. That is the problem.

 

[He-man]

About TGGFTGNOD

I think its a very bad thing to start thinking that you can make decisions or solve problems with "the greatest good" mindset.
An absolute good doesn´t exist, nor does an absolute evil exist, It is all in the eyes of the beholder, and beholders are known to be subjective.

Put this in scientology: The ONLY times someones EVER mentioned the phrase:
"Well He-Man, what do you think is the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics in this cycle?"
That question only ever arises when someone is in disagreement with the group about something. And guess what? In scientology the person is wrong and the group is right, TGGFTGNOD is just another instrument to keep the party line in check.

Why?

BECAUSE THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE UNIVERSAL TRUTH THAT IS APPLICABLE AS A SOLVENT IN ANY SITUATION, OR ON ANY PERSON.

Apart from cake, coffee and sex, shitloads and in entwined combinations.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Thanks.

Well I've spoken to you. A priviledge. I believe all know your heart is in the right place. I do. Geez!!! in spades.

She who is adored!

I'd like to speak to Veda by phone which I can probably do for free.

Try and persuade him to PM his number.

Hopefully here you may become "she who must be obeyed."

Speaking as one of the many in love.

Are you serious?

Or wot.

No offense meant to Carmel ... but pleeeeese.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Then you haven't thought about it very much.

When you isolate the dynamic of the individual to only one 8th of the equation, and you even give worms 1 vote (fifth D) and rocks 1 vote (6th D), as well as your *own* interpretation of the greatest good for mankind, and "groups", (while leaving out anyone else's interpretation of the greatest good) then you have actually destroyed the person's moral sense of responsibility to his fellow man, and to everything else.

The Greatest Good for the Greatest Number of Dynamics is the worst way to try to make an ethical or moral decision.

It is useful only for ruthless totalitarian groups, and it never produces sane or rational decision-making for the long haul.

Witness the Church of Scientology.

It runs on the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.

Is that enough, or do you need more?

Here's more.. Ragardless of need.. Like Mae West said.. "Too much of a good thing is wonderful!"

The 3'rd Dynamic, and specifically the 3'rd Dynamic that is Scientology, is made to be of life and death importance, superceeding all other dynamics!

Hubbard persuades you that Scientology is so important, that the group is in a war condition, nails & teeth to get the 'job done' before it's too late..

"Humanity has this fleeting opportunity, a 'window' in time, to go free..." Says Hubbard.. "Treat all scirmishes as a war!".. That's from the PL, PR Battle Tactics as I recall... Even the 'Conditions' are 'war-like' in that they place such importance on loyalty.. Doubt and Treason.. That kind of stuff is limiting personal (spiritulal?) freedom by it's nature. And is only needed in a war where the 'group' is fighting for it's very survival.

In reality, Scientology is in 'Enemy Condition' to mankind because of this!

'It's an emergency!', says the fool on the hill 10...