For the Rathbun "Believers"
- Thread starter Mick Wenlock
- Start date
Lulu Belle
Moonbat
What's the difference between "Freezone" and "COS in a different camp"?
I thought that was kind of the idea...am I missing something?
Carmel
Crusader
Well, I'm not a "Freezoner", but from what I've heard, Freezoners (who aren't all of the same ilk) take bits or lots of red on white (like, take the raisins from the turd, or raisins with some turd), and use it as a "self help" type of thing.
That's quite different than a 'blind' acceptance and adherence to the "tech", and vastly different to an allegiance, adherence and support of the whole Scn package presented and executed by the CofS.
EDIT:
There's not much difference between the Roman Catholic Church, and the Church of England, IMO - An example of the same church/structure in a different camp, if ya like.
I was brought up a Roman Catholic. I still hold some RC and Christian beliefs and practices, but I'm not a Christian. To me, my relationship with Catholicism and Christianity, could be compared to that of a Freezoner of Scn/the CofS - Quite different than still being a practicing RC/Christian and part of a congregation!
Last edited:
Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
well I guess I am not the best person to answer this but in my mind the difference is that some in the FZ think they have the real answers that Hubbard missed and they have been working assiduously to become the new source.
And there are those in the FZ who just think the CofS has been taken over by a malevolent force but that Hubbard really was the bees knees.
HelluvaHoax!
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SCIENTOLOGY: THE BRIDGE TO TOTAL FREEDOM BY L. RON HUBBARD.
FREE ZONE: THE BRIDGE TO TOTAL SOMEWHERE (THAT'S LESS COSTLY/ENTURBULATING) BY L. RON HUBBARD(S).
bts2free
Patron with Honors
Fluffy, I am not trying to start a witch hunt or anything like that. I am speaking for myself and stating my own concerns in relation to anything Scientology, which can be taken with a grain of salt if you like.
I'm sure there are many people who have had wins in Scientology. Even I had wins or I wouldn't have stayed in it for 23 years and in the Sea Org for 10 of those. My true belief in Scientology even made it seem reasonable that I be locked up, interrogated and held as a prisoner at the Int base. Had I not been so thoroughly indocrinated in Hubbbard's Scientology universe, I would have left a lot sooner.
The Scientology mindset - TGGFTGNODs, Homo Novice vs. Homo Sap, being trapped on a "prison planet" and forgetter implants between lives, "at WAR against the reactive mind", group or bank think, the 4th dynamic engram being audited out, getting ethics IN on the planet, hidden evil and false purposes to destroy Scientology, the paranoia...
Scientologists at or near the beginning don't experience the above. All is looked at through rose colored glasses. Everything is so theta! And it is those Scientologists that are looked upon by higher or more dedicated Scientologists as being "Theetie Weetie" or dilletantes.
The higher you go in Scientology, the more prison like it becomes, both mentally and physically. I speak for those who have experienced the true horrors that Scientology eventually delivers the further you go. The only reason there are people IN Scientology that haven't experienced these things are because they haven't gotten there yet or are BEING LIED TO.
People like myself, look at Scientology as a whole organism. Not just in parts.
Sure, you could take some of the basic courses and there are probably amazing pieces of data you could take from those and use effectively. But in Scientology, these are hooks. For me, those hooks eventually pulled me into a complete nightmare for me and my family. Not to mention the 30 or so other people that I recruited into the Sea Org.
From my own experience, it was the Tech that softened my ability to think for myself that eventually made all of the destructive or harmful things okay. The Tech itself opened me up for complete Scientology programming to the point where I became a willing slave to obey orders. I think it was purposely designed to have that effect on people. It really does "work" to that degree.
If someone wants to practice Scientology Tech, weather that be in the FZ or elsewhere, that's their own decision to make. But, I'm one to point out what the Tech did to me and what it made me become. Thus, I do get really concerned when I see people like Marty and Mike Rinder who despite seeing how bad things can actually get with Scientology, still want to practice it and get others to do the same, all the while pointing fingers at one guy for all its problems.
Despite all of the true history that's been exposed about L. Ron Hubbard himself, his Affirmations, his history with Jack Parsons and the OTO, his drug addictions, locking children in chain lockers on the Apollo, his RPF camps, his SP doctrines, Marty and the new Independents only see DM as the problem and not Source.
These people still believe that a Type III PTS condition should be handled with an Introspection Rundown, the one that killed Lisa McPherson. Marty publicly admitted to having documents destroyed to save Scientology in that case after knowing that she was trying to claw her way out of that room for days. But, Marty still beleves that Introspection Rundown Tech is the right way to go in a Type III handling, and that there is a "standard" way to do it. That scares me. The Introspection Rundown will continue to exist and be used outside of the CoS despite the current detractors.
So yeah, take your bits and pieces of Tech and use it if you want, but try to take a look at the whole picture of what that Tech eventually makes someone capable of doing.
I'm sure there are many people who have had wins in Scientology. Even I had wins or I wouldn't have stayed in it for 23 years and in the Sea Org for 10 of those. My true belief in Scientology even made it seem reasonable that I be locked up, interrogated and held as a prisoner at the Int base. Had I not been so thoroughly indocrinated in Hubbbard's Scientology universe, I would have left a lot sooner.
The Scientology mindset - TGGFTGNODs, Homo Novice vs. Homo Sap, being trapped on a "prison planet" and forgetter implants between lives, "at WAR against the reactive mind", group or bank think, the 4th dynamic engram being audited out, getting ethics IN on the planet, hidden evil and false purposes to destroy Scientology, the paranoia...
Scientologists at or near the beginning don't experience the above. All is looked at through rose colored glasses. Everything is so theta! And it is those Scientologists that are looked upon by higher or more dedicated Scientologists as being "Theetie Weetie" or dilletantes.
The higher you go in Scientology, the more prison like it becomes, both mentally and physically. I speak for those who have experienced the true horrors that Scientology eventually delivers the further you go. The only reason there are people IN Scientology that haven't experienced these things are because they haven't gotten there yet or are BEING LIED TO.
People like myself, look at Scientology as a whole organism. Not just in parts.
Sure, you could take some of the basic courses and there are probably amazing pieces of data you could take from those and use effectively. But in Scientology, these are hooks. For me, those hooks eventually pulled me into a complete nightmare for me and my family. Not to mention the 30 or so other people that I recruited into the Sea Org.
From my own experience, it was the Tech that softened my ability to think for myself that eventually made all of the destructive or harmful things okay. The Tech itself opened me up for complete Scientology programming to the point where I became a willing slave to obey orders. I think it was purposely designed to have that effect on people. It really does "work" to that degree.
If someone wants to practice Scientology Tech, weather that be in the FZ or elsewhere, that's their own decision to make. But, I'm one to point out what the Tech did to me and what it made me become. Thus, I do get really concerned when I see people like Marty and Mike Rinder who despite seeing how bad things can actually get with Scientology, still want to practice it and get others to do the same, all the while pointing fingers at one guy for all its problems.
Despite all of the true history that's been exposed about L. Ron Hubbard himself, his Affirmations, his history with Jack Parsons and the OTO, his drug addictions, locking children in chain lockers on the Apollo, his RPF camps, his SP doctrines, Marty and the new Independents only see DM as the problem and not Source.
These people still believe that a Type III PTS condition should be handled with an Introspection Rundown, the one that killed Lisa McPherson. Marty publicly admitted to having documents destroyed to save Scientology in that case after knowing that she was trying to claw her way out of that room for days. But, Marty still beleves that Introspection Rundown Tech is the right way to go in a Type III handling, and that there is a "standard" way to do it. That scares me. The Introspection Rundown will continue to exist and be used outside of the CoS despite the current detractors.
So yeah, take your bits and pieces of Tech and use it if you want, but try to take a look at the whole picture of what that Tech eventually makes someone capable of doing.
Carmel
Crusader
Hmm - As far as I know, a large percentage of "Freezoners" think that "the bridge" is a load of crock.
Seriously, I have a query for Freezoners - Have I got the wrong idea on this, or not?
HelluvaHoax!
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CiaoC!
You have asked a bad, bad, bad forbidden question. Please, I beg you, withdraw it now while you still have a chance to escape!
I started a thread once that I thought was a kinda super simple way to find out what various Freezoners actually thought their "product" was or where their "bridge" went to.
Carmel, if you know what's good for you darlin', slowly (verrrrry slowly) back away from your computer and when you are a safe distance, run!
THREAD FROM HELLUVA: "Ok FZ. It's Show-N-Tell time. BRING IT!"
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=13271
Ladybird
Silver Meritorious Patron
Very well said Bts2free! I couldn't have said it better. People like Fluffy and other true believers need to * rate and clay demo this post.
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
CiaoC!
You have asked a bad, bad, bad forbidden question. Please, I beg you, withdraw it now while you still have a chance to escape!
I started a thread once that I thought was a kinda super simple way to find out what various Freezoners actually thought their "product" was or where their "bridge" went to.
Carmel, if you know what's good for you darlin', slowly (verrrrry slowly) back away from your computer and when you are a safe distance, run!
THREAD FROM HELLUVA: "Ok FZ. It's Show-N-Tell time. BRING IT!"
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=13271
For a "forbidden" topic, you sure got back a lot of candid open discussion.
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
It probably would help if you knew what a true believer was and who actually felt that way- because, as usual, you've got it wrong.
NSFW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuOAY-S6OY
Ladybird
Silver Meritorious Patron
Ummmm...you are a scientologist right? You believe in the tech? You promote, protect and defend it in your every post and waking hour right?
All I am asking is that you take good long honest look at what you are pushing. I know you were only a mission staff for a couple years and you didn't do many courses or get up to the grades let alone clear or OT. So why are you so adamantly stuck on promoting something you know little about and have little experience with?
What is your game Fluffy?
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
My point was not who had wins in Scn. I said nothing about that. I'd have written exactly the same post had I no interest in Scn and thought no wins were to be had there.
Non CofS Scn'ists, being a pretty heretical bunch, tend not to get in that mindset too often or too deeply. In many cases, it doesn't even come up.
Yes, I know. I've written about the honeymoon period, so to speak, many many times.
Nothing I haven't observed and posted about many times before.
Which is exactly what the cult does and what they want you to do.
Package deal thinking is fundamentalist and stupid. It's the only thing that has ever held anyone back who was interested in any philosophy or religion. It's the thing I'm against.
There is no reason to use that to typecast or cast aspersions on those who study Scn outside CofS. In any event, non CofS Scn'ists have a proven track record of being willing to ignore and delete many PLs that are harmful and in many cases to adapt Scn "tech" and change it.
I had some bad experiences, too. Far less of them than you did, I'm sure, but for all that, some of those things were bad enough. Some of them were due to dicta written by Hubbard and some of them weren't. People I know who are interested in Scn outside CofS don't involve themselves with those dicta. There's no one running around telling people not to use perfume. There's no staff contracts. There's no enforced disconnection or coerced abortions. They're not doing those things.
He's one guy. He doesn't speak for me or for many other non CofS Scn'ists I know. I have, just a little earlier in this thread, discussed him.
The last people who tried to sell me a "whole picture (of)...tech" were left flat in the dust. I said no. So I'm not buying that from anyone else, either.
I think I've made it abundantly clear what level of disgust I feel for Marty (Mark) Rathbun and his blatant revisionism, dishonesty and deliberate misdirection. That shouldn't be too surprising, since it's a natural outgrowth of the level of disgust I had for him when he was operating as principle thug for the 'Church' and, now that he's supposedly 'out', the only change I see is that he's not *directly* and personally involved in the ongoing criminality of the Scientology 'organization' but instead now shows more interest in merely covering up past and current criminality. (That that indicates my 'criminal mind' as suggested by Div6 may or may not enlighten you.)
What I do find enlightening is the most recent 'backstep' taken by Marty on his 'blog' in stating that, til now, he has allowed people to 'vent' against David Miscavige there, but, that instead of thinking about appropriate punishment, it's now time for people to *ignore* David Miscavige. Including the suggestion that anyone who has been a 'victim' or target of the 'Church' is *himself* guilty of 'pulling it in' by putting too much attention on David Miscavige.
Quite amazing, but facile Scientological thinking. Also strange, because, while denying any underlying criminality in the Scientology 'philosophy'/Church/Movement/organization, Marty's *own* single dispute with Scientology is David Miscavige, the boogeyman
But, taken as a whole, Marty's twists and dance-steps and diversions don't surprise me. What *does* surprise me is the level of support and solidarity and willingness to 'lie for the cause' he's managed to collect from people who should know better.
I'd hope that people would reexamine the position that 'We should support Marty Rathbun because, whatever else he may be doing; lying, dissembling, twisting the truth, disguising evil, he's *useful* in rescuing Scientologists, who are supposedly unable to face the truth.
People, no good can come of this. Marty is playing you. Aren't you tired of being played yet?
Zinj
What I do find enlightening is the most recent 'backstep' taken by Marty on his 'blog' in stating that, til now, he has allowed people to 'vent' against David Miscavige there, but, that instead of thinking about appropriate punishment, it's now time for people to *ignore* David Miscavige. Including the suggestion that anyone who has been a 'victim' or target of the 'Church' is *himself* guilty of 'pulling it in' by putting too much attention on David Miscavige.
Quite amazing, but facile Scientological thinking. Also strange, because, while denying any underlying criminality in the Scientology 'philosophy'/Church/Movement/organization, Marty's *own* single dispute with Scientology is David Miscavige, the boogeyman
But, taken as a whole, Marty's twists and dance-steps and diversions don't surprise me. What *does* surprise me is the level of support and solidarity and willingness to 'lie for the cause' he's managed to collect from people who should know better.
I'd hope that people would reexamine the position that 'We should support Marty Rathbun because, whatever else he may be doing; lying, dissembling, twisting the truth, disguising evil, he's *useful* in rescuing Scientologists, who are supposedly unable to face the truth.
People, no good can come of this. Marty is playing you. Aren't you tired of being played yet?
Zinj
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
*Sigh*. I sometimes wonder if you ever understand anything anyone writes, even though you complain about those things so often.
I'm not pushing anything. I don't give a flying fuck who does Scn and who doesn't. But I am for freedom of speech and belief.
This is a total lie. I have my Clear bracelet- that I bought in CofS- right here. I'm also OT.
Oh, good lord. How many times does anyone have to tell you anything before you actually understand it?
Well, I've covered that nicely on my website.
Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
Yeah, well I made my opinon of Ratbun pretty clear at the start of this thread.
You are on the money zinj - just go look at the thread I was referring to and see the hysterics on that thread about how dare anyone insult Saint Marty, makes me realize that in the unlikely event that chicken liver manages to oust the dwarf, Scientology will just end up with one more classless, grunting sweaty pathetic neanderthal as a leader.
And those idiots will just eat it up.
You are on the money zinj - just go look at the thread I was referring to and see the hysterics on that thread about how dare anyone insult Saint Marty, makes me realize that in the unlikely event that chicken liver manages to oust the dwarf, Scientology will just end up with one more classless, grunting sweaty pathetic neanderthal as a leader.
And those idiots will just eat it up.
I think I've made it abundantly clear what level of disgust I feel for Marty (Mark) Rathbun and his blatant revisionism, dishonesty and deliberate misdirection. That shouldn't be too surprising, since it's a natural outgrowth of the level of disgust I had for him when he was operating as principle thug for the 'Church' and, now that he's supposedly 'out', the only change I see is that he's not *directly* and personally involved in the ongoing criminality of the Scientology 'organization' but instead now shows more interest in merely covering up past and current criminality. (That that indicates my 'criminal mind' as suggested by Div6 may or may not enlighten you.)
What I do find enlightening is the most recent 'backstep' taken by Marty on his 'blog' in stating that, til now, he has allowed people to 'vent' against David Miscavige there, but, that instead of thinking about appropriate punishment, it's now time for people to *ignore* David Miscavige. Including the suggestion that anyone who has been a 'victim' or target of the 'Church' is *himself* guilty of 'pulling it in' by putting too much attention on David Miscavige.
Quite amazing, but facile Scientological thinking. Also strange, because, while denying any underlying criminality in the Scientology 'philosophy'/Church/Movement/organization, Marty's *own* single dispute with Scientology is David Miscavige, the boogeyman
But, taken as a whole, Marty's twists and dance-steps and diversions don't surprise me. What *does* surprise me is the level of support and solidarity and willingness to 'lie for the cause' he's managed to collect from people who should know better.
I'd hope that people would reexamine the position that 'We should support Marty Rathbun because, whatever else he may be doing; lying, dissembling, twisting the truth, disguising evil, he's *useful* in rescuing Scientologists, who are supposedly unable to face the truth.
People, no good can come of this. Marty is playing you. Aren't you tired of being played yet?
Zinj
Ladybird
Silver Meritorious Patron
If you are "Clear" that speaks for itself. When did you become "OT" Fluffy?
I am ashamed to be Clear and OT, it marks me as a sucker duped cult bait member.
You are lying about it and bragging about it.
If you are clear or OT you did it in the Feezone. You stated your training and processing level many times on many boards. I think that just like you often say you have "friends" who did this and that you also say stuff that you read online as your personal experience.
Get a real life Claire.
I am ashamed to be Clear and OT, it marks me as a sucker duped cult bait member.
You are lying about it and bragging about it.
If you are clear or OT you did it in the Feezone. You stated your training and processing level many times on many boards. I think that just like you often say you have "friends" who did this and that you also say stuff that you read online as your personal experience.
Get a real life Claire.
HelluvaHoax!
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Wow! You're right. I had so many wins on the "candid open discussion" I hate to overrun it! I think I will just enjoy my win.
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
It certainly helped me get my Flimflam TRs in
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
Contradictory statement. If something didn't happen, one cannot brag about it.
As far as bragging goes, YOU brought it up. And I replied. Don't want to hear about it? Then don't post about it.
No. I did not. That's why I indicated that I bought my Clear bracelet IN THE CULT.
Actually, you'll find that I declined to give it. I said I was OT, an auditor, and I said which posts I've held. A number of people were cross examining me about not giving them that information and I know you were on those same threads.
You mean the one where I have a successful marriage, a good non Scn job, properties, pets, friends (many of whom are staunch critics of not just CofS but also Scn) a social life (saw Wicked a couple weeks ago), and am critical of the cult-- like that?
Check that off as a done.
Now go away and quit bothering me with crap you've made up about me.