For the Rathbun "Believers"

[Type4_PTS]

"The Greatest Good, for the Greatest Number of Dynamics" is part and parcel of Scientology weather we like it or not. That phrase has been used to actually justify and kill people i.e., Lisa McPherson and others in the past. Just like Marty ordered the destruction of files/documents that would have been damaging to the Church in the McPherson case. The people held in the RPF or against their wills. The disconnection of families. The infiltration of the US governement. The lying and shady operations. All of these were done under the guise of "TGGFTGNODs." That was always Hubbard. You can't get rid of it. And it will continue to fester destructive and abusive actions by its own nature.

Hubbard persuades you that Scientology is so important, that the group is in a war condition, nails & teeth to get the 'job done' before it's too late..

"Humanity has this fleeting opportunity, a 'window' in time, to go free..." Says Hubbard.. "Treat all scirmishes as a war!"..

And as much as staff are indoctrinated to have this attitude I imagine that for those who worked in Guardians Office/ OSA it was even more the case. I do see how the use of the "greatest good" equation can be utilized to justify any tactics needed to handle Co$ enemies, real or imagined. And what is ethical using this equation doesn't necessarily coincide with what is moral or legal. But if it is the greatest good, than no problem, right? The greatest good equation was absolutely brilliant (in an evil way) getting scientologists to put aside their own self-interests and also providing a great justification to commit harmful acts.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

And as much as staff are indoctrinated to have this attitude I imagine that for those who worked in Guardians Office/ OSA it was even more the case. I do see how the use of the "greatest good" equation can be utilized to justify any tactics needed to handle Co$ enemies, real or imagined. And what is ethical using this equation doesn't necessarily coincide with what is moral or legal. But if it is the greatest good, than no problem, right? The greatest good equation was absolutely brilliant (in an evil way) getting scientogists to put aside their own self-interests and also providing a great justification to commit harmful acts.

Just look at how many innocent civilians were exterminated for the "greatest good" of the totalitarian movement that sprung out of Nuremberg Germany in the 1930s. Scientology may not be exterminated people, but it is just as crazy and it's goals are just as unapologetically totalitarian in nature.

 

[Smilla]

And as much as staff are indoctrinated to have this attitude I imagine that for those who worked in Guardians Office/ OSA it was even more the case. I do see how the use of the "greatest good" equation can be utilized to justify any tactics needed to handle Co$ enemies, real or imagined. And what is ethical using this equation doesn't necessarily coincide with what is moral or legal. But if it is the greatest good, than no problem, right? The greatest good equation was absolutely brilliant (in an evil way) getting scientogists to put aside their own self-interests and also providing a great justification to commit harmful acts.

You are right.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

All right. Since this is important, here's some more anyway.

Let's see if you are willing to discuss the idea that you yourself brought up.

You said,

The way LRH made it easy for Scientologists to abandon their own self interests was by making the First dynamic, the dynamic of Self, only 1/8th of the "greatest good".

Can you see how the equation of "the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics" does that?

Btsforfree was offering that as an indication that non CofS Scientologists would do the same things that the church would. Being a non CofS Scn'ist and not liking stereotypes, I answered, offering myself as a case in point.

All 8 dynamics comprise all arenas of life. If a proposed action was the greatest good for all dynamics then all that would be in balance. Things that are bad for individuals, individuals families, their animals, their environment, their reach for spirituality - are not good for all mankind. Constantly denying the individual's rights and interests to further the aims of the group or, again, of all mankind would in the long run be detrimental to that group and to all mankind. The pages of history and of current events are chock full of nations taking over people's lives for the supposed good of those nations. In the end, the nation itself lost out every single time.

The church of Scientology has not furthered its survival by the things its done. It's produced more detractors than anything else. It's being rightly publicly criticized and is now nothing more than a laughingstock.

Churches and other groups are supposed to exist for the benefit of the member. When they don't- as is the case with CofS- they not only hurt the individual member, but also his pets, his family, his environment, his reach to help mankind, his ability to connect to the spiritual and the divine and, lastly, they bring themselves down.

Members of groups who are allowed to pursue the greatest good for the greatest number of their dynamics in other venues (they can't in CofS) end up with a satisfactory balanced lifestyle and a church or group that is also doing well but which has not taken over the member's life.

If one does everything for the group and denies self, one also denies family, other groups he's a part of, doesn't get much of a chance to help mankind, and doesn't get much spirituality out of the whole thing. And in the end, the group crumbles cuz everyone hates them and wants to shut them down.

In any event, btsforfree's point is that Free Zoners are likely to run rampant because of this principle. It's not true and I consider that to be a witch hunt. Nobody's gonna want to wear a big yellow S and be quarantined from society, yet that seems to be a proposition some are proposing. Perhaps some of us should be disposed of quietly and without sorrow, eh...

 

[Voltaire's Child]

See Fluffy, you jump into defending Scientology AT ALL TIMES and as much as you can. Even when you know you're going to get shit for it. That is the problem.

Just this week I wrote many posts criticizing CofS. I invite you to read them.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I see that someone re-posted my original post on this thread over to ratbun's blog. Not sure why that was done and I don't understand why it was posted on the Haggis thread.

But I have been enjoying the fainting hysteria from a bunch of people who seem to think that Marty will soon be walking on water.

But nevertheless - just in case my replies do not actually make it to the thread allow me to reiterate here what I said there.

Until a few minutes ago I had not posted ANYTHING to Rathbun's blog. IIRC I have only read it a couple of times, it really has no interest for me.

So for any Marty TBers who come over here to check this thread let me say it one more time

I do not post on FZ blogs or message boards, they are worthless. I would not post an attack on Rathbun on his own blog - it is HIS blog.

 

[TheSneakster]

I see that someone re-posted my original post on this thread over to ratbun's blog. Not sure why that was done and I don't understand why it was posted on the Haggis thread.

OK, so the person posting as Mick was an imposter ?

I would guess it was an OSA minion hoping to start a fight between Marty and yourself or Marty's Board and ESMB or some such stupidity.

Michael "The Sneakster" Hobson
I am *not* anonymous. I *do* forgive

 

[Panda Termint]

OK, so the person posting as Mick was an imposter ?

I would guess it was an OSA minion hoping to start a fight between Marty and yourself or Marty's Board and ESMB or some such stupidity.

Michael "The Sneakster" Hobson
I am *not* anonymous. I *do* forgive

That sounds about right.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

well my opinion of Marty is emblazoned at the start of this thread for all to see and he and I are not at all on the same side. Maybe OSA did it to get the Marty partisans stirred up and off the Haggis thread.

Could be, to be honest I never thought I would be worth impersonating.

Yep Mike - just so you can hear it from me directly - I did not repost my item from here on Rathbun's blog. Someone else did it.

 

[Carmel]

<snip>

Yep Mike - just so you can hear it from me directly - I did not repost my item from here on Rathbun's blog. Someone else did it.

Glad that you've made that clear, for any who might have thought that ya did. - Crikey!

 

[Alanzo]

well my opinion of Marty is emblazoned at the start of this thread for all to see and he and I are not at all on the same side. Maybe OSA did it to get the Marty partisans stirred up and off the Haggis thread.

Could be, to be honest I never thought I would be worth impersonating.

Yep Mike - just so you can hear it from me directly - I did not repost my item from here on Rathbun's blog. Someone else did it.

That is very funny!

I was defending your ass all over the place from all the independent Scientologists who thought that what you said made you so down tone!

And such a DB/Suppressive/PTS/SP!!!

 

[Carmel]

That is very funny!

I was defending your ass all over the place from all the independent Scientologists who thought that what you said made you so down tone!

And such a DB/Suppressive/PTS/SP!!!

Well, that's hypocritical of "Scios" - As Scios, you'd think they'd be looking at stuff like integrity, out KSW, "reasonableness", "High ethics for high conditions", etc, etc, etc.

At best they are being "reasonable", just like so many were "reasonable" with DM in the first place, which allowed him to get into power and stay there. Mick "downtone"? What a load of crock! They should take a look at themselves, and sharpen up on their "obnosis" skills which are clearly lacking. Crikey, they don't know their own tech!

 

[Alanzo]

Well, that's hypocritical of "Scios" - As Scios, you'd think they'd be looking at stuff like integrity, out KSW, "reasonableness", "High ethics for high conditions", etc, etc, etc.

At best they are being "reasonable", just like so many were "reasonable" with DM in the first place, which allowed him to get into power and stay there. Mick "downtone"? What a load of crock! They should take a look at themselves, and sharpen up on their "obnosis" skills which are clearly lacking. Crikey, they don't know their own tech!

Well.

It was Marty's bog.

So I was being polite.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

That is very funny!

I was defending your ass all over the place from all the independent Scientologists who thought that what you said made you so down tone!

And such a DB/Suppressive/PTS/SP!!!

I was impressed Alanzo - really. Brought a tear to me eye - sort of reminded me of our old days on Beliefnet!

I would never have known about it if a friend on FB had not told me about it.

Oh god, the true believers spouting off just made me crack up. Shows that you can get the idiot out of scientology - its a damned sight tougher job to get the scientology out of the idiot.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

snipped ...

Btsforfree was offering that as an indication that non CofS Scientologists would do the same things that the church would. Being a non CofS Scn'ist and not liking stereotypes, I answered, offering myself as a case in point.


In any event, btsforfree's point is that Free Zoners are likely to run rampant because of this principle. It's not true and I consider that to be a witch hunt. Nobody's gonna want to wear a big yellow S and be quarantined from society, yet that seems to be a proposition some are proposing. Perhaps some of us should be disposed of quietly and without sorrow, eh...

Warning ... sense of humour required.

Lovely of you to suggest it but completely unworkable IMO ... pseudo scientologists are even noisier than the real ones ...



Some retain one or two cofs traits too ... ie they have a very thick skin and they stick like shite to a blanket.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I think the concern re Marty Rathbun is that he was part and parcel of CofS' abuses. Now he's FZ and has made a number of statements regarding the church cleaning up its act (something that strikes me as very unlikely). Since some of Hubbard's policies and own actions gave rise to the way CofS is now, this, combined with Marty's past actions and current stance has given rise to this concern people have. For me, the jury is still out on whether or not Marty would be a Second Coming of David Miscavige but I gather that this is the issue.

 

[Carmel]

I think the concern re Marty Rathbun is that he was part and parcel of CofS' abuses. Now he's FZ and has made a number of statements regarding the church cleaning up its act (something that strikes me as very unlikely). Since some of Hubbard's policies and own actions gave rise to the way CofS is now, this, combined with Marty's past actions and current stance has given rise to this concern people have. For me, the jury is still out on whether or not Marty would be a Second Coming of David Miscavige but I gather that this is the issue.

Yeah, this is a major issue (one of them for me, anyway).

I'm curious, have you kept up to speed with Marty's blogs? From those blogs, it seems more than apparent, that Marty isn't Freezone, but DM and CofS all over again. It's the same stuff, just in a different camp.

This is what I don't get - I can see how newly outs would be supporting him and could/would be taken in by what he is saying (one of my concerns), but I don't get how others are supporting him when he represents just about everything and anything that the CofS was and is.

The jury hasn't been out for me, on Marty, for a while now. He is one who knows that the whole corporate structure was a scam, and he is one who perpetrated crimes. Currently, he is one who is giving a false picture about the CofS and Scientology, its crimes and its abuses, by blaming any and all of the crap/harm on DM - How or why could or would anyone trust him, when he can't and/or won't acknowledge the truth about it all?

For goodness sake, as far as Scientologists are concerned, where is the "effective blow to the enemy"? That "effective blow" should be relative to what one has done and what one is capable of, should it not?

The "effective blow" to date, wouldn't cut the mustard in my books. In addition to that, he is still promoting the 'enemy'. I have read everything Marty has posted and seen all the vids (I think). To date, I've seen nothing that tells me he's left the "enemy camp" - I've seen plenty though, that simply tells me that he's just intent on making another one, and he's currently trying to get licence to do so through the omission of vital information and a gross mis-representation of the actual scene.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I have indeed read some of his blog but I haven't read every single thing in it.

I like to think he's still finding his way and that he means well. But what's starting to bug the hell out of me is his claims that CofS is reforming or trying to clean up its act. I just CANNOT believe that. It's so patently untrue.

There is a reason I'm no longer a Free Zoner. I'm a supporter of them, yes. I believe in religious freedom. I believe in freedom of expression. And while I know that there are all sorts of Free Zoners and no centralized thingamajig, I also do know that there are at least a goodly number of hidebound tech purists therein. So I'm a friend to them but not a member.

People who are still interested in Hubbardite thingies should be willing to disagree with him and they should take a look at the shitty things he did and wrote which gave rise to the current cult which is more toxic under DM, perhaps, but wasn't exactly a fucking bed of roses before. DM isn't the one who invented overboarding.

So my inner jury still being out re Marty-well, could be wishful thinking on my part, ya know?

 

[Carmel]

<snip>
So my inner jury still being out re Marty-well, could be wishful thinking on my part, ya know?

Yep, I sure do.

 

[Vinaire]

IMO, the problem here with the Independents and or Freezoners is not the fact that they will be forming groups that are free from abuse, but the potential will always be there for it no matter how you draw it.

"The Greatest Good, for the Greatest Number of Dynamics" is part and parcel of Scientology weather we like it or not. That phrase has been used to actually justify and kill people i.e., Lisa McPherson and others in the past. Just like Marty ordered the destruction of files/documents that would have been damaging to the Church in the McPherson case. The people held in the RPF or against their wills. The disconnection of families. The infiltration of the US governement. The lying and shady operations. All of these were done under the guise of "TGGFTGNODs." That was always Hubbard. You can't get rid of it. And it will continue to fester destructive and abusive actions by its own nature.

That is of course unless I'm missing some point of FZ and Independents logic. Do they believe that Scientology is the ONLY answer for mankind? And that if Scientology doesn't make it world wide we will all meet our ultimate demise eventually? That's what Hubbard strongly believed and that's why TGGFGNODs was enforced and why so many things were justified in the name of Scientology.

Good post.

"We have the only answer" was piloted earlier by Christianity with disastrous results too.

.