For the Rathbun "Believers"

[Vinaire]

I didn't get the memo that Christians no longer espouse "We have the only answer"...

What? Is that Christianity still alive?

It has long been infiltrated by Vedic viewpoints and it seems to be marching to a different drum now.

Some remnants called "Christian Right" or "Vatican" are there bobbing up and down in its wake.

.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Wow! You're right. I had so many wins on the "candid open discussion" I hate to overrun it! I think I will just enjoy my win.

Well, no one was refusing to talk to you or to discuss the subject.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

I feel that Rathbun is mid a process where he has taken some responsibility and I'm not going to pass judgement on him until I see how everything turns out. I'm not giving him a free pass on any harm he's caused to anyone in the past and feel he should be accountable for what's transpired in the past, but I feel that he's done some good things recently, particularly in regards to the ST Pete Times Interviews.

Larry

He would still be working around the clock as Miscavige's door mat to ruin the lives of anyone who spoke out against the cult, if Miscavige didn't kick him to the curb. I'm glad he's now working against Miscavige, but I still have absolutely no respect for him and hope he goes to prison for his crimes right along side Miscavige.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Well, no one was refusing to talk to you or to discuss the subject.

I'm going to have to agree with Claire on this one, if you can't accept the fact that the Freezone is nothing but flimflam, it's not their responsibility to make you understand it.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I'm going to have to agree with Claire on this one, if you can't accept the fact that the Freezone is nothing but flimflam, it's not their responsibility to make you understand it.

Wow, ChuckNorrisCutsMyCOM! (but in a good way)

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I'm going to have to agree with Claire on this one, if you can't accept the fact that the Freezone is nothing but flimflam, it's not their responsibility to make you understand it.

 

[Blue Spirit]

You See It and Few Can

Yeah, this is a major issue (one of them for me, anyway).

I'm curious, have you kept up to speed with Marty's blogs? From those blogs, it seems more than apparent, that Marty isn't Freezone, but DM and CofS all over again. It's the same stuff, just in a different camp.

This is what I don't get - I can see how newly outs would be supporting him and could/would be taken in by what he is saying (one of my concerns), but I don't get how others are supporting him when he represents just about everything and anything that the CofS was and is.

The jury hasn't been out for me, on Marty, for a while now. He is one who knows that the whole corporate structure was a scam, and he is one who perpetrated crimes. Currently, he is one who is giving a false picture about the CofS and Scientology, its crimes and its abuses, by blaming any and all of the crap/harm on DM - How or why could or would anyone trust him, when he can't and/or won't acknowledge the truth about it all?

For goodness sake, as far as Scientologists are concerned, where is the "effective blow to the enemy"? That "effective blow" should be relative to what one has done and what one is capable of, should it not?

The "effective blow" to date, wouldn't cut the mustard in my books. In addition to that, he is still promoting the 'enemy'. I have read everything Marty has posted and seen all the vids (I think). To date, I've seen nothing that tells me he's left the "enemy camp" - I've seen plenty though, that simply tells me that he's just intent on making another one, and he's currently trying to get licence to do so through the omission of vital information and a gross mis-representation of the actual scene.

Carmel, you are able to see what is happening and few can do so.

I look at Marty and I see clearly a NAZI valence, like Bill Franks at FCDC and

many in SP Hall, including Heber, Kurt, Rinder, Starkey, Mitoff, and many others.

I sure wouldn't be signing Marty's Liability Formula anytime soon.

I would have if he had "Put this guys' lights out for good" as he said on the

Nightline show on Thursday.


I guess NAZI also fits LRH's out-of-valence valence too.

 

[Blue Spirit]

Ditto

I think I've made it abundantly clear what level of disgust I feel for Marty (Mark) Rathbun and his blatant revisionism, dishonesty and deliberate misdirection. That shouldn't be too surprising, since it's a natural outgrowth of the level of disgust I had for him when he was operating as principle thug for the 'Church' and, now that he's supposedly 'out', the only change I see is that he's not *directly* and personally involved in the ongoing criminality of the Scientology 'organization' but instead now shows more interest in merely covering up past and current criminality. (That that indicates my 'criminal mind' as suggested by Div6 may or may not enlighten you.)

What I do find enlightening is the most recent 'backstep' taken by Marty on his 'blog' in stating that, til now, he has allowed people to 'vent' against David Miscavige there, but, that instead of thinking about appropriate punishment, it's now time for people to *ignore* David Miscavige. Including the suggestion that anyone who has been a 'victim' or target of the 'Church' is *himself* guilty of 'pulling it in' by putting too much attention on David Miscavige.

Quite amazing, but facile Scientological thinking. Also strange, because, while denying any underlying criminality in the Scientology 'philosophy'/Church/Movement/organization, Marty's *own* single dispute with Scientology is David Miscavige, the boogeyman

But, taken as a whole, Marty's twists and dance-steps and diversions don't surprise me. What *does* surprise me is the level of support and solidarity and willingness to 'lie for the cause' he's managed to collect from people who should know better.

I'd hope that people would reexamine the position that 'We should support Marty Rathbun because, whatever else he may be doing; lying, dissembling, twisting the truth, disguising evil, he's *useful* in rescuing Scientologists, who are supposedly unable to face the truth.

People, no good can come of this. Marty is playing you. Aren't you tired of being played yet?
Zinj

Zinj, I agree with few of your posts, but you sure got it right on this one !

See my post above where I call him the NAZI that he is.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

In the naive hope that some of the total drivel worshippers over on Rathbun's blog may actually come over to ESMB to check what my points about Rathbun are - here we go

1) Rathbun helped Miscavige - for years, approximately two decades. For you true believers who still think Hubbard's Hogwash has any value but has been perverted under DM - just remember that Rathbun was right there helping and enforcing and making sure that DM's "will be done". Ol' Rathbun was on the job, getting his INt pay and his bonuses and helping his good friend Miscavige.

2) For those TBers now swooning over Haggis and his letter - the things Haggis is complaining about - things like using peoples' "confessions" against them - was being done all through Rathbun's time. Did Saint Marty actually stand up and oppose this? Not so anyone would notice.

3) The reports from others - Mike Rinder, Amy Scobee, Jeff Hawkins and others have testified to DM hitting people, Has Rathbun offered his sworn testimony on this subject? Has he taken one step AT ALL to put himself in the front line of the fight?

4) While I take some pleasure in the CofS getting it in the shorts because Haggis publicly resigned from it, personally I think the man is a total waste of spiritual space. During all his time in Scientology many people published about how the CofS was using confessions against people - what? Did Haggis just now learn to read? Where is Haggis' public apology to all those people he implicitly said were lying? Haggis IAS money and his donations paid for a lot of harassment and a lot of PI's.

5) So for all those who posted on the story and decided that I was trying to ruin the story or to diss Rathbun on his blog - you had your head up your asses on that point. Why not take it out of your ass now and actually LOOK? I know it is a big step for a TBer - but give it a try.

In the meantime feel free to worship at the altar of Rathbun. His track record of courage and truthfulness should encourage you.

 

[Terril park]

Hmm - As far as I know, a large percentage of "Freezoners" think that "the bridge" is a load of crock.

Seriously, I have a query for Freezoners - Have I got the wrong idea on this, or not?

You have. Not sure what demographic you are referring to. They,
well for the most part, aren't FZers.

 

[everfree]

1) Rathbun helped Miscavige - for years, approximately two decades. For you true believers who still think Hubbard's Hogwash has any value but has been perverted under DM - just remember that Rathbun was right there helping and enforcing and making sure that DM's "will be done". Ol' Rathbun was on the job, getting his INt pay and his bonuses and helping his good friend Miscavige.

I think he and Rinder have plenty to atone for. Don't know how much they would agree at this time, but we'll see what the future holds.

2) For those TBers now swooning over Haggis and his letter - the things Haggis is complaining about - things like using peoples' "confessions" against them - was being done all through Rathbun's time. Did Saint Marty actually stand up and oppose this? Not so anyone would notice.

But he is now.

3) The reports from others - Mike Rinder, Amy Scobee, Jeff Hawkins and others have testified to DM hitting people, Has Rathbun offered his sworn testimony on this subject? Has he taken one step AT ALL to put himself in the front line of the fight?

St Pete's article and blog surely make him Miscavige Enemy Number One as it is?

4) While I take some pleasure in the CofS getting it in the shorts because Haggis publicly resigned from it, personally I think the man is a total waste of spiritual space. During all his time in Scientology many people published about how the CofS was using confessions against people - what? Did Haggis just now learn to read? Where is Haggis' public apology to all those people he implicitly said were lying? Haggis IAS money and his donations paid for a lot of harassment and a lot of PI's.

He just got out, and made his disagreements publicly known, knowing that it would subject him to declare, disconnection and likely attack by DM and CofS. Seems like a pretty good step to me.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

I think he and Rinder have plenty to atone for. Don't know how much they would agree at this time, but we'll see what the future holds.



But he is now.

Yep I am sure he is. No risk at all. All gain , no downside. When it counted he did not step up - what on earth makes you think he will do it when it counts again if it involves any sort of risk to Rathbun?

St Pete's article and blog surely make him Miscavige Enemy Number One as it is?

You are kidding right? Do you seriously think that DM would be worried about someone who has been such a pussy for the entuire time? Puleeze. Enemy number one? Headley, Many, Hawkins are much more of a threat. Probably the biggest enemy is Larry Brennan.

in the nearly 5 years Rathbun has been out - yet to see one moment of courage.

He just got out, and made his disagreements publicly known, knowing that it would subject him to declare, disconnection and likely attack by DM and CofS. Seems like a pretty good step to me.

again - you are dreaming. What attack is DM going to level against Haggis? People wish to be connected to him, he is a powerful guy in Hollywood. He is going to be declared by a church he thinks sucks and you think this is some sort of price?

 

[programmer_guy]

Mick,

Marty should have stood up while he was still in. This is easy to say.

I think that this is about TWO separate points: what some say that he should have done, while still in; and, now what he should do that he is out.
In my mind, these are two separate issues.

However, now that he is out, do you think that he is going to admit to very bad wrongs and risk going to jail along with DM? Get real.

Would you do it? IOW, would YOU be willing to go to jail in order to take down Miscavige? I don't think so.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Mick,

Marty should have stood up while he was still in. This is easy to say.

I think that this is about TWO separate points: what some say that he should have done, while still in; and, now what he should do that he is out.
In my mind, these are two separate issues.

However, now that he is out, do you think that he is going to admit to very bad wrongs and risk going to jail along with DM? Get real.

Would you do it? IOW, would YOU be willing to go to jail in order to take down Miscavige? I don't think so.

If a 27 year veteran and second in command of Scientology, can allow himself to get abused to this level, by a single man, for so many years, as he claims, then of what use is Scientology?

A Technology to create dysfunctional cowards?

Marty can not act like a victim of Miscavige and then continue to pretend Scientology has value. He can't have it both ways. Either Hubbard's Tech was worthless when it comes to ethics, morality, confidence, communication ans so on, or he is lying about his involvement and simply using this situation to market his new cult business and suck in clients, more than likely it's all of the above.

 

[bts2free]

If a 27 year veteran and second in command of Scientology, can allow himself to get abused to this level, by a single man, for so many years, as he claims, then of what use is Scientology?

A Technology to create dysfunctional cowards?

Marty can not act like a victim of Miscavige and then continue to pretend Scientology has value. He can't have it both ways. Either Hubbard's Tech was worthless when it comes to ethics, morality, confidence, communication ans so on, or he is lying about his involvement and simply using this situation to market his new cult business and suck in clients, more than likely it's all of the above.

I couldn't have said it any better.

You cannot continue to pretend that Scientology has any value after all that.

 

[Zinjifar]

A coupld of things;

First, as I've mentioned elsewhere, Marty has apparently moved to limit speculation on the appropriate 'punishment' or future for David Miscavige and, instead, is now promoting 'ignoring' him as an alternative and suggesting that it was not *enough* ignoring him that's led to the current state. So, all you guys who feel like you were wronged by the 'Church' or Davey or even (gasp) Marty; it's your own fault and you pulled it in.

Personally, I suspect that the heartfelt expressions of a desire to see David Miscavige in jail struck a little too close to home for Rathbun, who is certainly quite aware that a jailed David Miscavige = a jailed Marty Rathbun.

Also, ran into an old and out-of-date webpage dating back to when Marty Rathbun (and Warren McShane) were being removed from Scientology history and websites, which includes many links to remnants still un-un-personned. (they're all 'fixed' now.)

Valuable though is that it also includes the data from Kady's old website with her rundown of Marty Rathbun's history.

http://www.anti-scientologie.ch/mark-rathbun.htm

Zinj

 

[programmer_guy]

If a 27 year veteran and second in command of Scientology, can allow himself to get abused to this level, by a single man, for so many years, as he claims, then of what use is Scientology?

A Technology to create dysfunctional cowards?

Marty can not act like a victim of Miscavige and then continue to pretend Scientology has value. He can't have it both ways. Either Hubbard's Tech was worthless when it comes to ethics, morality, confidence, communication ans so on, or he is lying about his involvement and simply using this situation to market his new cult business and suck in clients, more than likely it's all of the above.

Yes, but nevertheless, do you expect Marty to admit to some things that could land him in jail? I am not taking Marty's side, I'm just saying... what do you expect him to do? Be convicted and go to jail by his own words that he has not yet spoken?

 

[everfree]

Yep I am sure he is. No risk at all. All gain , no downside. When it counted he did not step up - what on earth makes you think he will do it when it counts again if it involves any sort of risk to Rathbun?

As I mention below, he's already had hundreds of thousands if not millions spent in large part to black PR him, including publication of his bootlicking ethics folder "overts". Seems like risk to me.

You are kidding right? Do you seriously think that DM would be worried about someone who has been such a pussy for the entuire time? Puleeze. Enemy number one? Headley, Many, Hawkins are much more of a threat. Probably the biggest enemy is Larry Brennan.

CofS had a large glossy booklet made and distributed to the entire CW area to counter the vids Marty et al did for the SP Times and black PR him, he hasn't done the same for Headley, Hawkins, or Brennan - all of whom I respect greatly. That seems to indicate that DM does in fact consider Marty to be a greater threat.

again - you are dreaming. What attack is DM going to level against Haggis? People wish to be connected to him, he is a powerful guy in Hollywood. He is going to be declared by a church he thinks sucks and you think this is some sort of price?

He may think it a price in itself - don't know how much stock he still puts in it but many freshly declared do. I also don't know what sort of close connections he has in CofS but for most long-term Scnists it's not an inconsiderable loss - which I know you know from sad personal experience.

 

[bts2free]

Yes, but nevertheless, do you expect Marty to admit to some things that could land him in jail? I am not taking Marty's side, I'm just saying... what do you expect him to do? Be convicted and go to jail by his own words that he has not yet spoken?

What do you expect him to do? Tell the truth and be honest.

Honest people actually have rights too. Example, the Manson murders. If it wasn't for that one girl (forgot her name), becoming the star witness and telling the truth, Manson might have escaped going to prison, which was well deserved.

The point here is that Marty has been involved in much more behind the scenes crime than what he's admitted to. He's pointing the finger at Miscavige as the Who, AND AT THE SAME TIME, promoting his own Scientology Independent zone.

I've already had an "Independent" Scientolgist (ex-Int base staffer) call me and try to "handle" me on my "disagreements" with Scientology. He even acted ARC broken about some of the things I've said in the past about Scientology. He even said that Marty was upset about some of the things I've written about him in the past. This person also tried to handle my point of view about LRH by saying that Hubbard actually went crazy after a stroke but that all of his Tech was breakthrough before all of that. Puleeeze!

Marty ordered that documents be destroyed in the Lisa McPherson murder to protect Scientology. That was NOT ordered by Miscavige but done on Marty's own.

What do we expect him to do?

Tell the truth. Maybe the authorities will be lenient and grant him immunity with everything that the man does know.

I think it's disgusting that he can get away with all that he has done already and STILL try to sell us snake oil.

 

[programmer_guy]

What do you expect him to do? Tell the truth and be honest.

That is easier said than done. Don't you think?

Maybe the authorities will be lenient and grant him immunity with everything that the man does know.

I would hope so... but until that happens... don't expect much.