How's That Freedom Workin' for Ya? The Power of an "SP"

[Jachs]

What I like about the VooDoo Doll theory is conforming to or aspiring to a something, whether a status, an ideal, of clear, a scientologist, a sea org member, a pillar of the community, a mum, identities with attached labels of behaviors ,attitudes, rules we mostly conform to for popularity or fear.

When the Voodoo doll construct gets punished , a person punishes themselves.

The views of the many leverage against the views of the minority.

I believe a great thing you can teach any one is the tricks of deception & control whether knowingly , sincerely or from naivety these tricks of propaganda, creative suggestion, intimidation and any others that can and are performed to do this.

not an education to fear deception.but to detect it,

The voodoo doll is a great analogy.

Think of all the SO members being hurt conforming to their voodoo doll construct that ron hubbard made for them.

The power of the SP voodoo doll is it has a titanium shield and laser eyes.

 

[Gadfly]

I don't know that I agree whole heartedly with this. While I have seen and experienced it, that was not the basis of my life. While I have long accepted my self as a thetan, both in and now out of Scientology, I have a family, a life, a profession, I can help people and not live the negative atributes above. I think it is a path one can go down, but it is not the only path, just because one finds himself an immortal being.

Knowing that you are an immortal being should bring clairty to your life, not give you a justifyer to run roughshod over life and those around you and be a total shit.

There was another point, about being ethical for apperance sake. That I also take issue with. While I agree some do so, I don't feel self policing is inherently bad. You are presented with ethical and moral choices every day and you, whether you call it self policing or being ethical, or doing the right thing, you still have to make and live with, what is the best survival / ethical / moral decision you can. If you only do it for approval, then your basic ethics are in the toilet.

I really resented being put on a pedestal as an "OT" and to "set a good example". Screw all of the Hidden and Not So Hidden Standards you are supposed to uphold. I just wanted to be myself, warts and all.

Mimsey

As I see it, some self-monitoring and self-control is part of being a civilized human being. Also, since many people strive to "improve" some aspect of his or her life, this often requires a certain degree of "self-conscious paying of attention to one's inner state and outer behavior", as a part of this working to improve.

Ideally, this is CONSCIOUS. You are fully aware and your choices and actions are in full view. The problem with Scientology and many other "belief systems", whether religious, political, spiritual or ideological, is that often you are NOT aware that you have accepted some box of beliefs and then have internalized the external "forces and requirements" of the group in this machinery of "self-monitoring" and "self-adjustment". It is often largely unconscious. I saw a great deal of this with card-carrying C of S Scientologists, and it involved a severe "lack of awareness" - and NOT any sort of "improved" or "heightened awarnesss".

I remember talking to Scientologists, in the past, about some "flaw" of Hubbard or Scientology, and you could SEE the inner machinery quickly snap into motion. They would be talking, while at the same time MONITORING what they were saying, so as NOT to "cross any unacceptable boundaries" (many in Scientology). Also, you could see them walls and barriers quickly erect for ANY subject or view that they were NOT supposed to "look at". I saw this MANY times, as I wasn't quiet in my observations of flaws and faults even while involved with the Church of Scientology.

I don't "believe" or "know" that I am a "thetan", but it is my "operational hypothesis". I live my life, as best as I can, as IF I AM A SPIRITUAL BEING. That means that I infer a connection to all other LIFE. If this is not the way it is, and all that "I AM" vanishes at death, well, who cares? I don't. I truly do pretty much "live in the now", and do not concern myself with "possible" futures as far as "my spirit" might be concerned. I figure that if I do my best to extend compassion, love and "granting of beingness" to ALL, not just those who "agree with me" (as is the case in Scientology and with MANY Scientologists), any "spiritual future" will take care of itself.

I do currently have the opinion that compassion and tolerance for all others are traits of "enlightened awareness". With Scientology, and many other belief systems, tolerance and compassion tend to ONLY be applicable to those in the same group who enthusiastically tow the party line. And worse, in Scientology it is actually encouraged and even enforced to NOT have any tolerance or compassion for a great many people who simply do not agree with you!

Again, while I don't "believe" it, and have no interest in foisting my views on others, this attitude of living with compassion and tolerance currently "works for me", while at the same time hurting NOBODY else in moving forward on my own life's path. That cannot be said for Scientology and those Church members who knowingly or unknowingly support the many atrocities of the Church of Scientology.

I lOVED this line Mimsey:

Knowing that you are an immortal being should bring clairty to your life, not give you a justifier to run roughshod over life and those around you and be a total shit.

THAT becomes an almost necessary behavior of people seriously involved with the Church of Scientology. Granted, it is NOT necessarily a trait of those who have chosen to use SOME smaller aspect of the subject Scientology while jettisoning the more toxic ideas and practices, and putting great distance between themselves and ANY version of the Church of Scientology. Involvement with the subject and practices of the "managing of Scientology" (OEC, ethics, justice, OSA N/W orders, etc.) often renders any improvements gained by the "self-improvement tech" (Red Volumes) insignificant, neutralized or even entirely erased.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

My gosh, there are some amazing posts on this thread. Mimsey, been enjoying your posts. Gadfly, another home run right outta the park, muh man!

And Synthia- wow, fantastic thread.

 

[Sindy]

My gosh, there are some amazing posts on this thread. Mimsey, been enjoying your posts. Gadfly, another home run right outta the park, muh man!

And Synthia- wow, fantastic thread.

I too have enjoyed Mimsey's and Gadfly's posts here greatly. Mimsey, I hope you didn't find me abrupt on my last response. I was in a mood. I very much appreciate and have enjoyed (and learned from) your contributions to this thread and others. What I really wanted to say last night, in response, was more like what Gadly said above but I didn't have it in me.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Synthia, I be cool - no problems here with your responses. I was writing one to you this am before work and a half an hour in I hit the wrong key and poof. So I quit out and went to work. I probably would have gotten a Pulitzer for my post, alas - it was not meant to be.

What I was thinking about is your proposition that everybody in the church is deluded, suffering from cognitive dissonance and thus are out ethics. (to paraphrase)

I was writing a post about the tobacco industry and how in many ways it is similar to Scientology, in that is has a toxic product, and there are many deluded people who think there is freedom of choice, and that cigs aren't harmful, people's lives and survival comes from the sale of cigs and where do you draw the line, in or out ethics?

So the conclusion I came up with is that one one hand I agree with you, and on the other I think there are grey areas where people use scio. in their lives and are not part of the problem - like a mom giving her hysterical kid a locational to get him/her in PT.

Am I all wet here?

Mimsey

 

[Sindy]

Synthia, I be cool - no problems here with your responses. I was writing one to you this am before work and a half an hour in I hit the wrong key and poof. So I quit out and went to work. I probably would have gotten a Pulitzer for my post, alas - it was not meant to be.

What I was thinking about is your proposition that everybody in the church is deluded, suffering from cognitive dissonance and thus are out ethics. (to paraphrase)

I was writing a post about the tobacco industry and how in many ways it is similar to Scientology, in that is has a toxic product, and there are many deluded people who think there is freedom of choice, and that cigs aren't harmful, people's lives and survival comes from the sale of cigs and where do you draw the line, in or out ethics?

So the conclusion I came up with is that one one hand I agree with you, and on the other I think there are grey areas where people use scio. in their lives and are not part of the problem - like a mom giving her hysterical kid a locational to get him/her in PT.

Am I all wet here?

Mimsey

Hello

I think we're talking apples and oranges. No, you're not all wet I don't think someone giving a locational or contact assist is out-ethics by any means.

The way I see it, there is a narrow band in which a "Scientologist" can exist and not be out-ethics per definition. That person would have to be too far away from an org to be "onlines", he/she would have to be learning on their own and not part of the group or maybe part of a small field practice or mission where the person could be kept isolated.

As soon as someone comes into and buys into what is going on inside the church, to participate, they have to lose their integrity. There is no other way. It's impossible to stay ethical and continue to be part of the campaigns going on.

In addition, whether we want to think KSW is right or not, the existing Scientologists are not even following that and holding management and themselves responsible for the tech and the fact that very few auditors are being made or what they think of as clears and OTs.

It is all about the money and I know, from experience having only recently left, that the staff know something is really wrong and they sweep it under the rug and become robots. It's a real scary process to watch and I began feeling like I was in a total nightmare.

The staff and the public know. I've heard LOTS of comments, while still in, that confirm this statement. How unethical can they be?

One of the most repulsive things to me is that I bet a good 95% or more of the people inside the C of S, know nothing or very little about the Lisa McPherson case details. How dare they not ask questions. I didn't either and I am ashamed. I am furious to find out the things that were done in my name with my money.

Most people on this planet, when giving to any organization, want to know what the organization is doing with the money and they expect real official documentation.

No one in Scientology asks. All of us got what we deserved, in a sense, by not demanding accountability and by talking ourselves into a believing a fairytale.

To reiterate, I think the only way one could stay ethical, while applying Scientology, is to not be involved with the organization at all and only apply those things that one can easily see work and do them only because of a desire to help. The rest of it is explosively booby trapped.

 

[NoName]

I actually like what you're trying to say Mimsey and Synthia.

My in friend and I were talking about Christianity, and how there are different levels of it. Doctrine (specifically, the Gospel), the institution built around the doctrine, and the culture of conformity built around the institution. I think you guys are getting at something similar.

My cynical opinion is that [strike]Tublard[/strike]Hubbard ripped off a lot of "doctrine" from the legitimate mental health professionals of his day and gave it some new names. So you have "Tech" that was basically well accepted in its day as abreaction therapy, and was used to help a lot of people.

Unfortunately, that was poisoned with some hypnotic techniques, and some out and out batshit crazy space cootie crap. That's not too unlike what goes on with Christianity, because you have some errors in translation, some groups that publish their own self-serving translations, and some groups that want to take one verse literally and ignore all the other stuff that would temper their brand of extremist view.

Hopefully I am making sense. "Love thy neighbor" is always good advice, for example. But I don't think that wacko from Hilsboro Baptist has read that verse, because it's fundamentally incompatible with going and protesting at military funerals.

You have wackos who blow themselves up based on something in the Koran. Christians did the same shit around 1,000 years ago - it was called the Crusades. And Crown Heights nearly broke into riots this past summer, because the Jewish men were harassing women who were wearing shorts and tank tops in the neighborhood in the middle of July.

IT ALL LENDS ITSELF TO SOME SORT OF ABUSE. Therefore, abuse is not the absolute test for whether or not something is wrong or untrue.

While Dianetics may never have produced a Clear, I don't doubt that many people have found relief through the techniques. The only reason may be that they finally have someone to listen to them who seems empathetic in a way. Touch assists, locationals, etc. Sure.

I have no proof that the laying on of hands works either, but there is a lot of evidence that a placebo effect is very powerful. And if a sick or emotionally distraught person gets some relief from the laying on of hands, is that so bad?

Just my two cents here.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

As soon as someone comes into and buys into what is going on inside the church, to participate, they have to lose their integrity. There is no other way. It's impossible to stay ethical and continue to be part of the campaigns going on.

The weird part - they think they are being ethical, and making an effect, and clearing the planet. Yet the stats are there to be seen, the orgs are empty, the events are playing smaller venues, the staff are working crazy hours to push Ideal Orgs and IAS and not their post products.

I always thought, when still enjoying the flavorfull koolaid, those campaigns to raise 10 million dollars were $10 million of services not delivered. And still I gave.

Why? I wanted to help save this sector of the universe... God. Did I really believe those words? Well, I wanted to help. Help, but first and foremost, get my self out of the trap. Lets leave it at that.

No, lets not. Really, I was too busy raising $, soloing, doing course, trying to run a business to help clear the planet, so I contributed to the IAS till I was a Patron with Honors. I paid someone else to clear the planet for me.

Seriously, I had those thoughts back then. Selfish, huh?

Mimsey

 

[Gadfly]

I have found this to be almost a MAXIM of involvement with Scientology Synthia (great comment):

As soon as someone comes into and buys into what is going on inside the church, to participate, they have to lose their integrity. There is no other way. It's impossible to stay ethical and continue to be part of the campaigns going on.

Of course, I am using (and I assume you are too) the word "ethical" in quite a different meaning than Hubbard gives it - which to Hubbard almost always means "helping the Church of Scientology".

When Hubbard says that ethics involves "removing counter-intention" from the environment, what he MEANS is removing counter-intention from realizing the GOALS OF SCIENTOLOGY. THAT is exactly and only how it plays out with the Church of Scientology. That is the only thing that "ethics" means in the context of the CHURCH of Scientology. And by connection, any person involved with the Church must aso accept the GOALS OF THE EXPANSION OF SCIENTOLOGY as his or her own TOP LEVEL GOALS. So stupid. So stupid. So stupid.

Hubbard states somewhere that "ethics" are a "personal thing". Oh, if only they were allowed to be that in Scientology!

 

[Iknowtoomuch]

That was an entertaining read.
Funny how SP's and us evil folk have far more freedom than the average Scientologist.

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

While I think the SP thing with Scn has been abused and turned into a method of ridding the organization of dissidents and contrary opinions, I was wondering about the concept of PTSness.

Recently I had a job, if I didn't fix work I didn't do for free, I'd get sued. Intellectually, there is no way I would want to pay a lawyer, and so logically, I was there to do the work. However, doing the work made me crazy.

I bitched about the owners, I got frantic, I hit my self with a hammer, just became unglued in general, my wife didn't want to let me drive and talk about it because I got so enturbulated, I have had a cold all week, etc. I was sitting there on the way home, thinking, if I don't believe in the SP theory, why was this happening to me? They only wanted a good job, but still, I would revert to thinking of them as type D - responsible for condition types. Prior to this I had always thought of them as nice people.

So I had all of the symptoms of being PTS. Was I?

Mimsey

 

[Lurker5]

That was an entertaining read.
Funny how SP's and us evil folk have far more freedom than the average Scientologist.

Lots more integrity too. And ethics (real definition, not the lrh made-up BS, designed to steal your soul and personal integrity, in the so-called ethics course . . .) .

 

[philTmonx]

While I think the SP thing with Scn has been abused and turned into a method of ridding the organization of dissidents and contrary opinions, I was wondering about the concept of PTSness.
snip
So I had all of the symptoms of being PTS. Was I?

Mimsey

im a pts1 blow..
for me whats true, is I personaly had issue with things going on in my life, (its called life and responsabilities). thats about it, its easy to get worked up and start to loose focus and sight of what we do daily.. I have run fingers thru power saw x2, shot nails in my had x3+, etc.. but whats true for me is if I calmly look at it, what is real, is I work with powertools, I use then other than designed, I work fast and at a rushed pace, thinking about 6 things at once so you bet I was not fully present while dealing with task at hand..
and thats about it... you can only be as controled by outside influance as you freely give up of yourself..
my 2 nickle, please dont take offence... just trying to relate.
begood. be good at what you do... but first and most important, be good to you!!

 

[Gadfly]

While I think the SP thing with Scn has been abused and turned into a method of ridding the organization of dissidents and contrary opinions, I was wondering about the concept of PTSness.

Recently I had a job, if I didn't fix work I didn't do for free, I'd get sued. Intellectually, there is no way I would want to pay a lawyer, and so logically, I was there to do the work. However, doing the work made me crazy.

I bitched about the owners, I got frantic, I hit my self with a hammer, just became unglued in general, my wife didn't want to let me drive and talk about it because I got so enturbulated, I have had a cold all week, etc. I was sitting there on the way home, thinking, if I don't believe in the SP theory, why was this happening to me? They only wanted a good job, but still, I would revert to thinking of them as type D - responsible for condition types. Prior to this I had always thought of them as nice people.

So I had all of the symptoms of being PTS. Was I?

Mimsey

I think that some people are prone to "franticness" and getting all "worked up" with "unnecessary drama". I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with SPs or PTSness. Now, I don't doubt that some people might react with "PTS" symptoms when under the direct influence of very invalidative and pushy people, but I doubt all do. "Prone to accidents" and "upsets" are NOT WELL explained by Hubbard's over-simplistic paradigm of SPs and PTS.

I have found that if I simply pay attention and be sure to "remain in PT", and NOT get lost in my mind or daydreaming, that I rarely have accidents. Hubbard had a point when he said about work, "be there and do the work".

My solution has been to stay away from drama, which translates to "stay away from people". I have been self-employed almost my entire life, mostly on the Internet for the past 10 years, and while not making a great deal of money, that has allowed me to rarely have to compromise my time or energy by having to work closely with varied and assorted idiots. It has allowed me to keep "oppression" (normal human idiotic tendencies) away from me. :confused2:

 

[Sindy]

While I think the SP thing with Scn has been abused and turned into a method of ridding the organization of dissidents and contrary opinions, I was wondering about the concept of PTSness.

Recently I had a job, if I didn't fix work I didn't do for free, I'd get sued. Intellectually, there is no way I would want to pay a lawyer, and so logically, I was there to do the work. However, doing the work made me crazy.

I bitched about the owners, I got frantic, I hit my self with a hammer, just became unglued in general, my wife didn't want to let me drive and talk about it because I got so enturbulated, I have had a cold all week, etc. I was sitting there on the way home, thinking, if I don't believe in the SP theory, why was this happening to me? They only wanted a good job, but still, I would revert to thinking of them as type D - responsible for condition types. Prior to this I had always thought of them as nice people.

So I had all of the symptoms of being PTS. Was I?

Mimsey

I see PTSness as just stress. A person can be under enough stress to make them ill or agitated etc. Sure. That was known before Scn. You were under stress.

 

[Good twin]

It's called being human.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

Certainly Scientology's 'PTS doctrine' has grains of truth in it.. Just enough that ye' all 'cognite' how deep and profound this shit is.. And just sufficient to string you along into 'accepting' 'Supressive Person Doctrine'.. And agreeing that 2,5% of humanity should really be 'deleted' in order to 'raise society's tone level'!!!!

Blegh!!!

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

^^^ And having said that.. Hubbard is unsurprizingly trying to pull yer' leg! - By calling it 'PTS' which means 'Potential Trouble Source'.. This 'name' for the phenomenon makes YOU guilty/responsible for having some sort of contagious and wholly unacceptable in good company illness..

But you can name an SP, who's doing it to you!

Ain't it great!? - By now you realize the alarmingly important and pressing necessity of having an Orwellian Society with everybody reporting bad behavior and face crimes to the Spanish Inquisiti.. Erh.. Scientolgy's Ethics Officers..

You just can't make a dent in that logic! - How else are we going to find out who are SP's and get them justly declared.. And 'deleted'!?

 

[philTmonx]

my reason for blowing among a few other things is I was not ok with the "indicators" the auditor kept cycling in on my mother who had resently blown in nor cal.. Yes we have had a very unhealthy history together (she disconnected from all her family before i was born, and as a child, kind of became her only constant conduit and companion over the years, the opposite of how I plan or raising my own if i am so blessed in the future) I was unwilling to pursue the topic further with her (auditor) as i did not feel that was the place of the church to direct me on how I wanted to handle or confront it.. I to this day love her dearly, and have left open lines if she chooses to try and interact on a constructive level.
Also I was disgusted that my father was thrown in the mix to try and bring me back in... I felt this was actualy fuggin with his "case" and not fair or ethical at all!!
I had issues with my family and how I felt i was raised, Im ok with that, and was. disconnect always loomed on horizons and I was terrified to have to confront that..
And the more I get to look at with other perspective, Im proud of my choices, and did what was right for me, so thats what matters.

ps
I really did not need to sit in a fuggin room with tin cans to know that..

**that said I will say that yes i have whitnessed people that do need help recognizing what a healthy relationship is, but I still dont think cans is the effective route, nor timely.. what i personaly needed was a safe place to express my feelings sans guilt of being fuggin human.

 

[Good twin]

Guess what! No matter how many times you get your PTS R/D corrected or retrain on the PTS/SP course you will still occasionally get ill make mistakes and have accidents.

Scientology is such insidious hogwash you can find two exact scenarios and two opposing "standard tech" explanations for said scenarios. Here's a perfect example. Per PTS tech "All accidents and illnesses are caused by a PTS condition". BUT (in Scientology there is always a big but) on the Freewinds when people were bumping their heads on the low entrances to cabins or slipping and falling on the deck or God forbid getting seasick......(all conditions that any cruise ship director will tell you are part and parcel and expected when you load a bunch of landlubbers onto a sea bound vessel) we sure couldn't have to admit that the percentage of PTS was higher on the ship that in a wog public school.

So.....a different and perfectly acceptable "why" was found. As it turns out per the cult's investigations tech the people on the ship were just so "keyed out" by the Deathwinds experience and they we so exterior to their lowly meat bodies that they were bumping into things and falling down and such. So you see folks, your accidents and injuries and yes even your mistakes and illness will be swiftly brushed under the rug if you can come up with a "theta" explanation.

Once the canary learns how to sing the tune he will no longer be subjected to lessons. Scientologists either buy service or inspire others to do so. There is no other value in Scientology.

But once again I know I am preaching to the choir. Just remember...We were them and someday they may be us and/or need us. I have nothing but compassion for Scientologists, no matter how loopy they behave.

GT