Karen#1
Gold Meritorious Patron
The pure poppycock of these videos.....The series should be called "Going down the rabbit hole with Marty."
Marty Rathbun raises his head, and starts squawking PART 2
- Thread starter Boson Wog Stark
- Start date
The pure poppycock of these videos.....The series should be called "Going down the rabbit hole with Marty."
phenomanon
Canyon
True, I think most scn that have done tr's (and most everyone else too!) would have the ability to spot his odd behavior in these videos. But I think the videos might possibly work a different way on a bubble dweller.
It's hard for me to put myself in the shoes of someone who has dedicated multiple decades to something while greatly ignoring all else. But I think to someone like that these videos might come off as "Great, Marty is doing his a&e! The tech works, people can be recovered!"
Trying to imagine how a bubble dweller would view this history...
Marty leaves and it causes a surge of "blows", "doubters" and "ethics cases". Church "da's" (dead agents) and keeps most in the fold (it's all good because "the sp's have been rooted out!"). A couple of years quietly pass and then I hear wind of some St. Pete times articles that I'm not supposed to read (so I don't) and instead only read the church's "da" on him (freedom mag, etc). Many years go by and there are little pr flare ups here and there but those are put out by the church's "da" and heavy ethics. I ignore and quickly close any "entheta" on the internet (and if exposed I turn myself in). Then all of a sudden I hear Marty has repented and is "making amends" by telling the "truth" and setting the record straight for all to hear. It's clear in these videos that he's a broken man, I think "wow, I sure am glad I didn't go to the dark side like poor Marty". Having never heard the whole story I think I just might believe what he is saying... maybe?
A question for those that were in, had a lot of training and believed in the "tech": Picture never having been exposed to any of Marty's previous statements (after he left) and all you were willing to listen to was the church's propaganda. Deeply in, tech person, not exec. Then they show you these new videos of his. What do you think now? Your perspective might help me to better understand and deal with someone that is close to me
T.
Wow. That is an interesting point of view. I think if I were a "true believer" , I would believe that the tech had worked and Marty is doing his A-E.
He has been salvaged.
Hip Hip Hooray!
Clueless Person
New Member
What about Monique? :confused2:He is married, correct? Could "we" be Monique and he?
TheOriginalBigBlue
Gold Meritorious Patron
True, I think most scn that have done tr's (and most everyone else too!) would have the ability to spot his odd behavior in these videos. But I think the videos might possibly work a different way on a bubble dweller.
It's hard for me to put myself in the shoes of someone who has dedicated multiple decades to something while greatly ignoring all else. But I think to someone like that these videos might come off as "Great, Marty is doing his a&e! The tech works, people can be recovered!"
Trying to imagine how a bubble dweller would view this history...
Marty leaves and it causes a surge of "blows", "doubters" and "ethics cases". Church "da's" (dead agents) and keeps most in the fold (it's all good because "the sp's have been rooted out!"). A couple of years quietly pass and then I hear wind of some St. Pete times articles that I'm not supposed to read (so I don't) and instead only read the church's "da" on him (freedom mag, etc). Many years go by and there are little pr flare ups here and there but those are put out by the church's "da" and heavy ethics. I ignore and quickly close any "entheta" on the internet (and if exposed I turn myself in). Then all of a sudden I hear Marty has repented and is "making amends" by telling the "truth" and setting the record straight for all to hear. It's clear in these videos that he's a broken man, I think "wow, I sure am glad I didn't go to the dark side like poor Marty". Having never heard the whole story I think I just might believe what he is saying... maybe?
A question for those that were in, had a lot of training and believed in the "tech": Picture never having been exposed to any of Marty's previous statements (after he left) and all you were willing to listen to was the church's propaganda. Deeply in, tech person, not exec. Then they show you these new videos of his. What do you think now? Your perspective might help me to better understand and deal with someone that is close to me
T.
LRH became scarce after his "The Shrinking World of L. Ron Hubbard" interview where he had to deflect questions about his marriages.
Even Davie seems to have become scarce after he had to deflect from Ted Koppel's questions about Xenu and space opera creationism.
When was the last time Heber made a public (non-Scientology) appearance?
Tommy Davis seems pretty scarce after denying the existence of Disconnection and then getting recorded enforcing Disconnection. His blurb about LRH's war injuries and Dianetics healing them even though they didn't exist probably didn't help.
Mike Rinder, well, that didn't play out per the Church playbook very well.
Now Marty. If precedent holds I think we are probably watching a kind of long drawn out curtain call.
Acting in the capacity of Church spokesperson seems to have a finite shelf life.
If you are a lawyer who gets to use the disclaimer of not being a Scientologist, I'm not sure that counts but it does kind of leave Marty in the role by default. I'd imagine the stress at the top must be so intense that if you have someone who can express your feelings in public by proxy that would almost make them like some kind of therapist.
A given percentage of anyone viewing these vids will be made aware of the source of the issues like Going Clear and Leah and they will then go on to inform themselves of the other side's position. If the total number of active Scientologists are around 20,000 and only 10% violate the self censuring mandate then that is still 2000 people who will never look at Scientology the same again. I don't see any scenario where Marty doing this is beneficial to the Church. If I wanted to be contrarian and give him the benefit of the doubt I could say he may understand this on some level and it is one of the reasons he's going along with it.
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JustSheila
Crusader
phenomanon
Canyon
Boson Wog Stark
Patron Meritorious
I'm not sure you mean that Marty is acting in the position of Church spokesman now, but it is like that, and so bizarre that Miscavige would choose the Kingpin of the "Posse of Lunatics," the SP of all SP bitter apostates to have that role. But when their leader won't speak in public, and Karen Pouw just issues short, laughable statements no one can take seriously, I guess Miscavige is desperate enough to try Marty.
What you wrote about Miscavige being under so much stress he had to express his feelings by proxy through Marty is a good possibility. If Karen Pouw ever appeared on TV and went on a long-winded critique of GOING CLEAR or Leah's show, the media would have so many questions. "Well, was Shelly at Tom Cruise's wedding or not? Where is she? If she's "working tirelessly, as always," why isn't she with you since that's the way it used to be?"
And the media regards the cult's official smear sites as laughable and often petty garbage, so in his desperation Miscavige speaks his own thoughts through Marty thinking what, that it might have some impact or confuse the media? In the very least, the former darling of the media with his stories of Miscavige beating his underlings and having a violent temper, being a "psychopath," are supposed to be discredited, at least in regard to Marty's account.
It's kind of like the game of who is a REAL Scientologist, only now it is who is the real psychopath. Miscavige would like to shift some of that nutty onto Marty and away from himself.
So I'd agree that it is hard to figure out what this accomplishes at all, and it could backfire worse than anything it accomplishes. But I think one think it accomplishes is that Marty dead-agents himself, which is supposed to send shock waves through all critics, that no one who is critical of Scientology or Miscavige can be trusted, even if it's just that the cult has money to make them turn. In the very least, Marty can't be trusted.
Miscavige miscalculated though, since in the last few years especially, most critics and ex-members have not trusted Marty at all, and many people never trusted him.
And I agree with you, that another way Miscavige miscalculated about the impact of these videos is that of the members who see them, more of them will be made curious about seeing GOING CLEAR or Leah's show for themselves than will just neatly slot Marty into some kind of reformed SP going through Steps A through E.
When members listen to Miscavige go on about all the new orgs and the pieces of drywall used in a renovation etc., they feel great about it. They really don't have to think. They can ride of the flow of his cadence and Shermanspeak, and they are all together, to transform civilization.
Yet, if they listen to anything Marty is saying at all, it is so unintelligible it will force them to think. Marty has gone on for over 3 hours of video now, and holy Xenu, not even Miscavige goes on for that long at events speaking by himself.
TheOriginalBigBlue
Gold Meritorious Patron
The whole thing smacks of desperation. Desperation to be heard, to be relevant, to say things that can't be said through normal channels, to vent pent up frustrations and a litany of needling peeves, to change opinion, to salvage lost devotees.
I'm not saying Marty is an official spokesperson for the Church but because so many of those people in the past end up getting themselves boxed into a corner so they are virtually outcast from general society, it makes sense that it would eventually happen to DM. But the death of LRH was supposed to put an end to all that. DM was on Nightline, he was fwee to be out there to the world promoting Scientology's good works. Now he is as rare in an uncontrolled public venue as LRH was. Blinky can't put that Genie back in the bottle. No one can. Maybe DM is using Marty as a kind of back channel outlet for all that frustration - I don't know and I'm not sure I really care but that is the impression I get.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHzGxEzDQA
J. Swift
Patron with Honors
In Marty's latest video he attacks the documentary film Going Clear. In doing so, Rathbun has become Karin Pouw, i.e. a transparent liar repeating one of the same old Scientology lines: It happened a long time ago. If we follow Marty's logic then Charles Manson and his followers should all be paroled today because the murders they committed happened a long time ago. Marty's argument is flawed because the passage of time does not mitigate evil. For example, Reed Slatkin's Ponzi scheme is not less horrific now because time has passed. Many people were bankrupted and ruined by this lying evil Scientologist. Slatkin's victims and their families have had to deal with the consequences of Slatkin's fraud on a long term basis. How many young people were harmed because their parents were financially ruined by Slatkin? How many opportunities in life did they miss because their parents were bankrupted?
What Marty evades, what he fails to address are the underlying policies in Scientology that drive the cruelty, human rights abuses, financial predation, disconnection, fair game, etc. Marty will never address these things now that he has crossed back over to Scientology and become its de facto spokesman.
Marty is the worst possible person Scientology could have chosen to push any message. Marty has lost all credibility and yet the Church is using this deadbeat liar? Seriously OSA? The ever-present question remains: Why doesn't David Miscavige get in front of a camera and speak? Scientology has about $200 million dollars in in-house studios and yet Miscavige is nowhere to be seen. The best Scientology can do is Marty? Pathetic.
As the former self-proclaimed "Enforcer" Marty knows that Scientology is an organized psycho-terrorist system that exploits is own members and is driven by revenge to attack those who expose it and speak out against it. Marty engaged in Fair Game. He knows it. And yet he claims that he wants to bring "objectivity" to a system that is inherently not objective in any way. There can be no objectivity in a dictatorial psycho-terrorist system that is driven by the self-serving tautological cruelties of L. Ron Hubbard's demented policies.
Incredibly, Marty then echoes an OSA line that "nothing bad has happened" in Scientology for ten years. That alone is sufficient reason to dismiss Rathbun as a charlatan. OSA has argued this for decades: "Scientology was bad back then due to bad people. But once these people were expelled everything is better now."
If we follow OSA's logic, we can predictively expect Marty Rathbun to admit on camera that the Church of Scientology improved for the better after he was expelled in 2004.
"I was the wholetrack prison warden," Marty will have to confess. "And I did cost the Church hundreds of millions of dollars in wasted legal fees due to my "pawn-shan" to fight disastrous legal battles that cost COB eight years of time to clean up." Marty has backed himself into a corner.
These Marty videos are a real dog's breakfast.
What Marty evades, what he fails to address are the underlying policies in Scientology that drive the cruelty, human rights abuses, financial predation, disconnection, fair game, etc. Marty will never address these things now that he has crossed back over to Scientology and become its de facto spokesman.
Marty is the worst possible person Scientology could have chosen to push any message. Marty has lost all credibility and yet the Church is using this deadbeat liar? Seriously OSA? The ever-present question remains: Why doesn't David Miscavige get in front of a camera and speak? Scientology has about $200 million dollars in in-house studios and yet Miscavige is nowhere to be seen. The best Scientology can do is Marty? Pathetic.
As the former self-proclaimed "Enforcer" Marty knows that Scientology is an organized psycho-terrorist system that exploits is own members and is driven by revenge to attack those who expose it and speak out against it. Marty engaged in Fair Game. He knows it. And yet he claims that he wants to bring "objectivity" to a system that is inherently not objective in any way. There can be no objectivity in a dictatorial psycho-terrorist system that is driven by the self-serving tautological cruelties of L. Ron Hubbard's demented policies.
Incredibly, Marty then echoes an OSA line that "nothing bad has happened" in Scientology for ten years. That alone is sufficient reason to dismiss Rathbun as a charlatan. OSA has argued this for decades: "Scientology was bad back then due to bad people. But once these people were expelled everything is better now."
If we follow OSA's logic, we can predictively expect Marty Rathbun to admit on camera that the Church of Scientology improved for the better after he was expelled in 2004.
"I was the wholetrack prison warden," Marty will have to confess. "And I did cost the Church hundreds of millions of dollars in wasted legal fees due to my "pawn-shan" to fight disastrous legal battles that cost COB eight years of time to clean up." Marty has backed himself into a corner.
These Marty videos are a real dog's breakfast.
skep
Patron with Honors
Marty has lost all credibility. Here's some advice for him, man to man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQgh-RqQbXg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQgh-RqQbXg
CommunicatorIC
@IndieScieNews on Twitter
In addition, Tony Ortega has noted that the above-emphasized factual premise of Marty's argument is simply false.
https://twitter.com/TonyOrtega94/status/886593340355080192
ThetanExterior
Gold Meritorious Patron
Here's another theory to add to the mix:
Marty was causing DM problems by publicly criticising scientology and being the go-to guy for media who were writing critical stories. Then his wife initiates a major court case against the CoS. Marty had said he won't be silenced and he won't be bought off. Also the lawyer who could possibly win the case and get a lot of money was Ray Jeffrey who was becoming the go-to lawyer for ex-scientologists.
All of this must have been pissing-off DM. Monique was winning the case and Marty had indicated he wouldn't be paid off to keep quiet so what was DM going to do?
I suggest that he worked out a deal whereby the court case was dropped thereby leaving Ray Jeffrey with nothing to show for his efforts and Marty was given a contract as a "consultant" for the CoS with a responsibility of handing over all information he had on critics and then starting a campaign of criticising the critics and supporting the CoS. Thus he wasn't being paid off and he wasn't being silenced. He was being hired for his very valuable expertise.
The result is that the court case is ended, Ray Jeffrey gets nothing and Marty stops being a critic. His recent videos and blog entries are just a sop to appease his ego and let him justify to himself the payments he's receiving. They're probably of little interest to DM.
Marty was causing DM problems by publicly criticising scientology and being the go-to guy for media who were writing critical stories. Then his wife initiates a major court case against the CoS. Marty had said he won't be silenced and he won't be bought off. Also the lawyer who could possibly win the case and get a lot of money was Ray Jeffrey who was becoming the go-to lawyer for ex-scientologists.
All of this must have been pissing-off DM. Monique was winning the case and Marty had indicated he wouldn't be paid off to keep quiet so what was DM going to do?
I suggest that he worked out a deal whereby the court case was dropped thereby leaving Ray Jeffrey with nothing to show for his efforts and Marty was given a contract as a "consultant" for the CoS with a responsibility of handing over all information he had on critics and then starting a campaign of criticising the critics and supporting the CoS. Thus he wasn't being paid off and he wasn't being silenced. He was being hired for his very valuable expertise.
The result is that the court case is ended, Ray Jeffrey gets nothing and Marty stops being a critic. His recent videos and blog entries are just a sop to appease his ego and let him justify to himself the payments he's receiving. They're probably of little interest to DM.
Boson Wog Stark
Patron Meritorious
That makes so much sense, especially when you think about the lengths CoS went to, to destroy lawyers in the past. You've stated this really clearly. This was getting rid of two problematic birds with one stone -- Marty as outspoken critic of DM, and the star anti-Scientology lawyer, Ray Jeffrey & team. It could diminish Ray Jeffrey's willingness to take Scientology cases in the future and it shows that he is not going to have a string of cases, winning or settling case after case against Scientology. They saw what happens when that gets out of hand, like the Vegas attorney who has been so successful against Narconon. He became a star. They do not want any anti-Scientology star attorneys.
This was also my main theory when I first was trying to figure out what was going on, but I do not understand legal things enough to know if they could get away with something like this.
About the videos being of little interest to DM, that too is possible, except as of yesterday, they are not linking the video about the Shelly episode, so that may show that DM is taking some interest, or at least his lawyers are screening these videos.
It was probably a sticking point with Marty, that he would follow their script loosely, but still say what he wanted to say, to appease his ego.
I was thinking about the percentage of church members who would ever see even one of Marty's videos (from a link on the smear site), or other videos on the CoS smear site and it is probably very low. Unless a member knew, let's say, Paul Haggis, personally, they aren't going to be looking to watch a video of his now deceased sister smearing him, and the same is true about Marty and his videos about critics.
Boson Wog Stark
Patron Meritorious
I agree about the desperation. CoS is melting from the Internet being poured on it. And from the beginning it has suffered from the delicate balance of trying to maintain secrets while still reaching out and appearing to be relevant, if not something extraordinary with superpowerz on top.
I can think of two other incidents which are examples of this, similar to things you mentioned. One was Hubbard demonstrating the attributes of a "clear" to the public. Another was DM and Tom Cruise's plan to make a splash with Tom's anti-psych drug statements. Hubbard never attempted that again, and Tom Cruise is no longer talking about Scientology to the public. It seems like it's almost forbidden, like talking about Xenu. Primarily, he's probably afraid about it affecting his box office. In so many words, I bet Tom has told Miscavige, no more birthday parties or special medals either. They're going to take over the planet one ideal org at a time, until there are no street corners left which do not have an ideal org.
And talking about desperation, the whole Marty thing may be small potatoes compared to DM's anxiety over actually getting a TV station running. The programming could backfire so badly. Will he really want to see clips of it out there on YouTube, like news vloggers show clips of Pat Robertson?
Marty's videos trying to discredit GOING CLEAR or Leah's show are like trying to put out the sun with a bucket of crazy water, so I don't think that's what it was really about.
HelluvaHoax!
Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
.
Great post!
I had to pause and reflect how a Scientologist in good standing would evaluate the above. From their perspective, there would only be two outpoints in the interrogation:
Great post!
DETECTIVE
Thanks for coming in today for the interview.
We are interested in learning whatever you might
know about the criminal incident that
happened in your neighborhood.
RATHBUN
I have no idea what you are referring to.
DETECTIVE
Well, when i called you on the phone yesterday
you heard me identify myself as a homicide
detective did you not? And I gave you my card
a minute ago that clearly states I am a homicide
detective. And when you were shown into these
offices today you no doubt saw the signs that
indicated you were in the Homicide department,
did you not? So you know where I work and you
know I am a detective, so what kind of things
would you guess I might be trying to "detect"?
RATHBUN
Well, does it have something to do with Scientology
because if it does, I'm not interested.
DETECTIVE
Let me give you clue. Have you been in
your backyard recently?
RATHBUN
Well, if i had to guess, maybe you're referring to the
11 dead bodies they found buried in my backyard?
DETECTIVE
Good guess. What can you tell us about that?
RATHBUN
I can tell you that they are still digging around in my back
yard and there's a hell of a lot of yellow crime scene tape
everywhere so it looks like hell if I want to entertain guests.
Have you even read the police manual of protocols for taping
a crime scene?! Just by that excess taping alone, you've
lost all credibility--and it's obvious that you have already
bungled and blown this entire murder investigation!
DETECTIVE
The bodies Rathbun, how did they get there?
RATHBUN
You're talking about ancient history! Some of
those people were murdered like 3 or 4 weeks
ago, right? Why are you even bothering me with
such staledated shit and messing up my backyard with
with your yellow tape? That tape isn't going to find
the murderer so why don't you get off your ass
and get out there and do your damn job?!
-------
Thanks for coming in today for the interview.
We are interested in learning whatever you might
know about the criminal incident that
happened in your neighborhood.
RATHBUN
I have no idea what you are referring to.
DETECTIVE
Well, when i called you on the phone yesterday
you heard me identify myself as a homicide
detective did you not? And I gave you my card
a minute ago that clearly states I am a homicide
detective. And when you were shown into these
offices today you no doubt saw the signs that
indicated you were in the Homicide department,
did you not? So you know where I work and you
know I am a detective, so what kind of things
would you guess I might be trying to "detect"?
RATHBUN
Well, does it have something to do with Scientology
because if it does, I'm not interested.
DETECTIVE
Let me give you clue. Have you been in
your backyard recently?
RATHBUN
Well, if i had to guess, maybe you're referring to the
11 dead bodies they found buried in my backyard?
DETECTIVE
Good guess. What can you tell us about that?
RATHBUN
I can tell you that they are still digging around in my back
yard and there's a hell of a lot of yellow crime scene tape
everywhere so it looks like hell if I want to entertain guests.
Have you even read the police manual of protocols for taping
a crime scene?! Just by that excess taping alone, you've
lost all credibility--and it's obvious that you have already
bungled and blown this entire murder investigation!
DETECTIVE
The bodies Rathbun, how did they get there?
RATHBUN
You're talking about ancient history! Some of
those people were murdered like 3 or 4 weeks
ago, right? Why are you even bothering me with
such staledated shit and messing up my backyard with
with your yellow tape? That tape isn't going to find
the murderer so why don't you get off your ass
and get out there and do your damn job?!
-------
I had to pause and reflect how a Scientologist in good standing would evaluate the above. From their perspective, there would only be two outpoints in the interrogation:
1) The homicide detective needs to be run on objective processes to handle their reactive behavior on "control" and its component parts--Start, Change & Stop. So they can causatively "stop" the compulsive "outflow" of "added and inapplicable" yellow crime scene tape.
2) Marty is not hung up on things that happened in the past because he is in present time.
2) Marty is not hung up on things that happened in the past because he is in present time.
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rickybobby
Hostess of the Internet
I'm betting that DM is very interested in these videos-- as a very visible manifestation that he has won, that he has, after all these years, money and effort, defeated and subjugated Marty. I think the feud between Miscavige and Marty is a personal one. Miscavige has been so laser focused on and mentally invested in intimidating Marty and getting under his skin for so long, that he never even stopped to consider if this war against him would still benefit Scn as a whole. DM doesn't care. This ugly episode is about two men who can't "quit" each other, and are unable to disengage from a feud that may not serve either one. These videos are serving two different purposes simultaneously-- Marty salvaging his vanity and trying to pretend he didn't capitulate, and Miscavige taking a victory lap.
Lurker5
Gold Meritorious Patron
And maybe this: When dm has had enough of mr contritely licking his ass, dm will box up the last payment - and severance notice - for consulting services - a yellow plate with crap on it - dm's - two dabs for eyes, and a curved turd as the smiling mouth. Eat shit mr. And then where will he be . . .
Rue that freaking day maawteee . . .
George Layton
Silver Meritorious Patron
Well it's about time he got a job.
George Layton
Silver Meritorious Patron
In addition, Tony Ortega has noted that the above-emphasized factual premise of Marty's argument is simply false.
https://twitter.com/TonyOrtega94/status/886593340355080192
Yeah, but right after that it all changed.