Scientology security kills man with sword

Status
Not open for further replies.

Zephyr

Patron with Honors
Hey Micko,

Like I said on another site, "Never take a knife to a gun fight".

I just joined this group and you're the only thing that's familiar so far. I too, as you know, am licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Being an old hippie and all in favor of peace, I was reluctant to get it or carry a weapon but the fact of the matter is, in any given environment, even a Church, there are psychos who don't respond well to "peace and love", and as you say in other words, Tone 40 8C probably works well on True Believers but would probably come across as "a maniac yelling at me" to anyone else.

I had to draw my weapon once and got in the ready when the guy running at me was forty feet away and that stopped him before he made it into the "20 foot" circle.

That guard did right.

Zephyr
 
So the main FZ forums are simply continuing the Hubbard brainwash and suppression of free speech.

Smitty,
One of the most irritating things I have found about rabid Scientologists is how that have a nasty or snide or rude remark for any comment against Scientology. I think statements like this one of yours that I’ve quoted falls into that kind of category. I am firmly against the Freezone, but Terril Park is a gentleman, and he discusses things in a more rational and courteous way than you do.
My point is this: this kind of dialogue wins empathy for the Freezone. It is nasty and serves no purpose other than weakening our position while gaining empathy for Terril Park’s side. If you want to make a reasoned argument against the Freezone, and you have make some excellent points in the past when you’ve done that, then communicate in a way that is not snide or nasty or rude. Otherwise, you become tiresome.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 


Nah. The conservative sites do their own thing and that includes "respecting confidentiality".

The main sites are open to anyone. Since many "conservatives" are uncomfortable with "confidential" discussions, in order to provide a social setting where everyone feels comfortable in participating, upper level stuff is avoided. It's not needed there anyway. Most discussions tend to be along the lines of recipes, travel, movies, etc..

There are plenty of sites, both freezoner & not, which allow free-ranging discussions of "ot stuff". I'm on two such freezoner boards myself in addition to my "regulars", and am considering joining a third. There are others I know about but am not a member on.

Freezoners just don't keep harping on the same crap on every single board that they post. :) Weeeell, most don't, anyway. :coolwink:


Mark A. Baker
 

Terril park

Sponsor
So the main FZ forums are simply continuing the Hubbard brainwash and suppression of free speech.

Not sure exactly what you're responding to. However there are a couple of forums for those on upper levels. There no one is allowed to discuss lower levels in case it restims the current regimes to invalidate clear.

That suppression of free speech?
 

Zephyr

Patron with Honors
Martini

One of the rare times we have a common viewpoint, mostly. With regard to me not being honest I openly and transparently, in yer face like, promote the freezone.

Martini says this -:

"Hold everything!!

Mario got an L in the Freezone from Cl XII Pierre in 2006!!!!!!

This is HUGE. THAT AUDITING IS HIGHLY, HIGHLY SUSPECT.

Freezoners beware. Pierre needs to answer for himself immediately."

Well I spoke to Michael Charavano and Thetagal last night and again they confirmed that Mario never had auditing in the Freezone, from anyone, and Thetagal has posted so here. Further Thetagal had offered services to Mario and he never took them up.



It seems Mario had spent one weekend with Michael Charavano prior to going to a Freezone conference, had visited Thetagal where Mario met
Michael, and it seems spent just a few weekends in the company of other Freezoners, and a good time was had by all.

Then nearly 3 years later Mario comes back for a final visit to his freezone friends and seems disturbed.

From this an ediface is built up a picture, " off-beat wholetrack"
[ whatever that is, Dianetics is not offbeat] , " never brought under any kind of control by the FZ" [ the freezone is not a controlling group of people] etc.

And then a handful of freezoners are upbraided for not doing what the might and resources of the Flag Landbase were unable to accomplish.


Mario got L11 and L11Ex at the FLB in the early '90s. His completions were published in the Source Mag.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Smitty,
One of the most irritating things I have found about rabid Scientologists is how that have a nasty or snide or rude remark for any comment against Scientology.

-snip-

The Anabaptist Jacques

The primary Scientological tactic is deviousness, manipulation, and phony PR. I hope that those bother you also.

FZ forums practice censorship re. the confidential levels of Scientology. My guess is that these forums also don't appreciate other confidential aspects of Scientology being discussed.

But this thread is about a man who was shot to death, and one question is, "Is anyone representing this person's interests to see that, at least, all the videos (from all cameras) of this incident are available for public view? - minus any blanched out gory detail. There's no reason why that shouldn't happen, except that the Scientology cult prevents it.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
So the main FZ forums are simply continuing the Hubbard brainwash and suppression of free speech.


It's called "rules of conduct". Emma has them, Andreas has them, Beliefnet has them- most if not all private forums have them.

And on some FZ forums, one can discuss upper level stuff. So what.

Beliefnet is NOT a Scn owned site/set of forums, for example, yet they do not allow ANY discussion containing details of OT materials, terming that "sacred mysteries". If private forums are a problem, what would any of us be doing HERE?
 

Zephyr

Patron with Honors
Winner! My old friend! (well, maybe not old but I've known you for eons). They call me a "newbie" here but they should say I'm the FNG.

What really is disgusting, to me, is the POV that keeps pointing attention to "the misapplication of the tech", which is responsible for Mario's unfortunate interruption to living a life. And, it goes back and forth between the Tech application he got at Flag, or the stuff he got from the FZ.

Well, everyone's heard the cliche' "If it looks like a Duck... walks like a Duck..."

As far as I'm concerned, mining for evil purposes, in any form of questiong format, can cause a person to go dink-dink, at least bother them, but that's not my point.

What bothers me (one thing) about Scientology is "it's all someone else's responsibility". Instead of the "Devil made me do it" it's BTs and Clusters.

I know you haven't gotten any "auditing" in many moons, nor have been bothered by it, but do you realize many.many "processes" are geared to dredge up EvPurps, as if getting them cleared up is a cure all? Fact of the matter is, IMHO, Scientology thinks everyone is evil, apparently.

Did you know two weeks before Mario split down there from Eugene he was arrested in the Court House, on his way to stick a sharpened Rail Road Spike into the heart of a judge, whom disfavored him in a judgement.

The man was clearly nutz and I would have shot him dead if I were in the Security Guard's shoes, as well.

Martini... FZ or organized SCN... they're both a Duck. None of it is qualified to muck around in a person's head, hiding behind the guise of Religion.

Zephyr
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
So a Scn'ist went nuts. How do you know that the Ls drove him nuts? That's an assumption.

I've met a lot of (when I was visiting my relative in the hospital) psychiatric patients who were FAR from compos mentis who were of various faiths and also were undergoing psychiatric treatment. Most were doing rather badly. Does this mean I am to blame their religions, their dogs, their haircuts, their families and their psychiatric treatment for their insanity? When I don't even know those people?

Seems to me that in the absence of certain data, that people are just filling in the gaps with wishful thinking.

I also find it VERY interesting that it's been shown that Mario did not receive the auditing in the FZ, but the FZ witch hunt continues. You know, this is a damn shame. When I was in CofS and was posting and people were hoping I'd leave CofS (as I eventually did) time and time again people said "oh we don't care what anyone believes, it's just the cult and the abuses we oppose." They also represented the critic's scene as a haven of free thought, tolerance and free speech- by severe contrast with CofS.

And what do I see here? Attempts to shout others down, smearing them, posting untrue statements about their motives, practices and history. The other day when Fancy copy pasta'd a message from Michael Chiarovano, a couple people roundly booed her and said no way could what he said be true. With NO factual basis. Then came some comments about Michael. Well, boo freaking hoo. So some of you aren't seeing what you'd LIKE to see. Well, you know what? People who have a continuing interest in Scn frequently see stuff that's can sometimes be very challenging to read about and we, at least, handle it with grace and tolerance.
 

Winner

Patron
Yeah, I hear you, old friend, messing around with people's head is a serious matter. I don't really know what the FZers are doing and they don't interest me terribly, but what I object to strongly is people like Martini posing as a FZer, saying he/she supports the FZ, then stealing Mario's crazy posts to the FZ forum and then publishing them in ESMB while saying without saying that it is the FZer fault that Mario went nuts, and while giving the false data that Pierre Ethier gave him L processing in the 2000's also saying that he supports the FZ. It is so outpointey it can make yer head spin.
 
The primary Scientological tactic is deviousness, manipulation, and phony PR. I hope that those bother you also.

FZ forums practice censorship re. the confidential levels of Scientology. My guess is that these forums also don't appreciate other confidential aspects of Scientology being discussed.

But this thread is about a man who was shot to death, and one question is, "Is anyone representing this person's interests to see that, at least, all the videos (from all cameras) of this incident are available for public view? - minus any blanched out gory detail. There's no reason why that shouldn't happen, except that the Scientology cult prevents it.

I could care less what the Freezone does or doesn't do on its boards. When people get turned-off by the messenger they usually don't listen to the message. I don't understand why some may think it is preferable for an anti-Scientologist who sometimes makes good points should be ignored and discredit other anti-Scientologists. Speaking rudely may make one feel important and superior, but in turns other people off to one's message.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
So a Scn'ist went nuts. How do you know that the Ls drove him nuts? That's an assumption.

I've met a lot of (when I was visiting my relative in the hospital) psychiatric patients who were FAR from compos mentis who were of various faiths and also were undergoing psychiatric treatment. Most were doing rather badly. Does this mean I am to blame their religions, their dogs, their haircuts, their families and their psychiatric treatment for their insanity? When I don't even know those people?

Seems to me that in the absence of certain data, that people are just filling in the gaps with wishful thinking.


In most mainstream religions a member of a community who exhibits severe mental disturbances would most likely to be encouraged by the church or members of the congregation to seek psychiatric help of some kind.

We will never know whether it was the tech, a genetic disposition to mental illness, a traumatic brain injury or a combination of all that caused him to lose mental stability.
However even if it was proven without a doubt that Scientology did not negatively influence his mental state; it certainly did nothing to assist him.
Kind of damning for an organisation styling itself as a church; and its members who are supposedly striving to help mankind.
 
In most mainstream religions a member of a community who exhibits severe mental disturbances would most likely to be encouraged by the church or members of the congregation to seek psychiatric help of some kind.

We will never know whether it was the tech, a genetic disposition to mental illness, a traumatic brain injury or a combination of all that caused him to lose mental stability.
However even if it was proven without a doubt that Scientology did not negatively influence his mental state; it certainly did nothing to assist him.
Kind of damning for an organisation styling itself as a church; and its members who are supposedly striving to help mankind.


^^^^^^
This is what it's really about. Talking only about the tech - did it or didn't it cause the incident- is too scio -egocentric. If he had mental probs he should had been advised to go to a doctor for referral to psch help.
That is part of the PR flap OSA will try to sweep under the carpet.
 

Veda

Sponsor
The main FZ forums don't allow upper level discussion.

-snip-

So the main FZ forums are simply continuing the Hubbard brainwash and suppression of free speech.

The primary Scientological tactic is deviousness, manipulation, and phony PR. [Anabaptist Jacques] I hope that those bother you also.

FZ forums practice censorship re. the confidential levels of Scientology. My guess is that these forums also don't appreciate other confidential aspects of Scientology being discussed.

But this thread is about a man who was shot to death, and one question is, "Is anyone representing this person's interests to see that, at least, all the videos (from all cameras) of this incident are available for public view? - minus any blanched out gory detail." There's no reason why that shouldn't happen, except that the Scientology cult prevents it.

I could care less what the Freezone does or doesn't do on its boards. When people get turned-off by the messenger they usually don't listen to the message. I don't understand why some may think it is preferable for an anti-Scientologist who sometimes makes good points should be ignored and discredit other anti-Scientologists. Speaking rudely may make one feel important and superior, but in turns other people off to one's message.

The Anabaptist Jacques

IMO, the comments "Hubbard brainwash," and "suppression of free speech" are valid observations, not "rude," but refreshingly blunt and honest.

Do a search (on ESMB) for the number of times Terril has called people "asshole," and you may be surprised. There's plenty of venom interspersed between the "How to win friends and influence people" PR techniques.

In any event, I'm more concerned with an actual thorough police investigation occurring, and the videos of this shooting being made available. Scientology Inc. has a very long history of abuse. Mario M. appears to have been "mental," with his Robert DeNiro "Taxi Driver" appearance, and his swords - and still don't know if these were real or theatrical swords - but he's still a human being, and there are investigatory procedures to be followed (I hope), and the public has a right to see that report and view the video(s) of the shooting.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Do a search (on ESMB) for the number of times Terril has called people "asshole," and you may be surprised. There's plenty of venom interspersed between the "How to win friends and influence people" PR techniques.

I would be suprised. However I'm not timid in language or who I address.:) Mostly I'm well mannered. But see below.

In any event, I'm more concerned with an actual thorough police investigation occurring, and the videos of this shooting being made available. Scientology Inc. has a very long history of abuse. Mario M. appears to have been "mental," with his Robert DeNiro "Taxi Driver" appearance, and his swords - and still don't know if these were real or theatrical swords - but he's still a human being, and there are investigatory procedures to be followed (I hope), and the public has a right to see that report and view the video(s) of the shooting.

Again we are in agreement!

I have been caustic at times re people who bash me. Mostly I'm friendly.
Here below you see what the response to my un edited success stories I post
has been for years on OCMB. Occasionally I succumb to being inpolite. I've been banned from posting such there. And again very recently after a statement they are now more friendly?

Mea Culpa.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ci4aGq8fRWY (Don't forget to hit the "watch in High Quality" switch!)
_________________
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
Reply to The Anabaptist Jacques

Smitty,
One of the most irritating things I have found about rabid Scientologists is how that have a nasty or snide or rude remark for any comment against Scientology. I think statements like this one of yours that I’ve quoted falls into that kind of category.
Actually, it does not because I am neither a scientologist nor an anti-scientologist. Such people are free to take any view on the subject. However, there are a number of aspects of the subject of scientology which are falsehoods and speculations. I object to those things being passed off as facts.
I am firmly against the Freezone, but Terril Park is a gentleman, and he discusses things in a more rational and courteous way than you do.
I am not against the freezone and I do not think that Terril Park is a gentleman.
I have found a number of times where he has discussed topics in a irrational and discourteous manner. Your comparison is your opinion.
My point is this: this kind of dialogue wins empathy for the Freezone. It is nasty and serves no purpose other than weakening our position while gaining empathy for Terril Park’s side. If you want to make a reasoned argument against the Freezone, and you have make some excellent points in the past when you’ve done that, then communicate in a way that is not snide or nasty or rude. Otherwise, you become tiresome. The Anabaptist Jacques
I have found no evidence for your statements, but acknowledge that they are your opinions. If you find my posts to be tiresome, then you should neither read them or respond.
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron

Zephyr

Patron with Honors
When he got arrested for threatening to drive a spike in the heart of the Judge who disfavored him two weeks before he died, Mario was sentenced to probabtion at the Mental Health Iinstitution in Eugene, OR., meaning if he got busted again for anything he'd be admitted into the nut-house. He got busted carrying the spike, so, it seems he planned on doing it. NUTZ?

That's a no-brainer and that's tending toward a pun.

IMHO, saying SCN caused his mental state is as silly as SCN saying the FZ caused it... or BTs and Clusters... or EvPurps... or whatever.

Mario was a few bricks shy of a load.

He needed medical and psychiatric help and in the least some good drugs. He didn't and wouldn't get that from SCN, and due to overcrowding in Lane County Jails and Institutions, he didn't get it from there.

Martini, you'd get more attention if you told the truth. Mario hadn't heard an L command since he completed one in the early '90s at the Flag Land Base.

About rewriting the Axioms. Hubbard was a prolific but terrible writer. Maybe they needed to be rewritten. That's my PROfessional opinion.

You have absolutely NO idea what Mario did in any possible "solo" pursuits.

Further, Mario never professed he had all the answers -- where did you get this from? And even if he did, who are you to caution anyone about risks you know nothing about, because, you don't know anything about the "risks" because you are a true believer and don't have an open mind and haven't tried it, as it seems.

About discovering "it himself" -- it might be beyond your scope of intell, Martini, but that's what it's all about.

LRH is an example of a circus hawker. I don't know what wrong turns he made. Seemed to me, he accomplished what he intended, created a religion and made a bundle. Unfortunately he died before he could enjoy the fruits of his labor.

You try to come off as an expert. Too bad for you, your posts buffet against people who know more and who or what you are.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top