Scientology security kills man with sword

[iaxiloll]

YouTube - KTLA NEWS : Sword-Wielding Man Fatally Shot by Scientology Security Guard

 

[skydog]

Do they have the police in their pocket? According to some media, they have already established that it was in self defense. Sounds like the proverbial "rush to judgment".
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/23/scientology-building-secu_n_145887.html

 

[ScudMuffin]

If they have survielence and they've looked at that then I'd say they probably have it right.

Lets face it, who would walk into that place carrying swords on a normal day? Seen too much of this in the UK, I'll side with the guards.

 

[Matex]

They make it sound like he went on a shooting spree. He didn't.

I am more "threatening" right now by having improvised weapons on me. I could kill as many people with my heavy computer as with swords.

 

[lrnobs]

One wonders if the rhetoric and invective thrown around by the anon could have provoked this poor guy to go off the deep end and show up with swords...

This is silly. Scn has methods, procedures, and policies to push people over the edge. Anon is simply making Scn well known and not so well thought of.

 

[MichelleAsWell]

from comments on cnn article

Just skimmed this thread, don't know if this was posted yet:

Our Cousin
He was our cousin who was mentally ill and believed he was an actual immortal. The church of Scientology of Scientology played into his paranoia while denying him the psychiatric medication that was keeping him stable. He had ran out of money and the church would not let him continue his training courses, only recently did he realize that he had been scammed and was so furious he threatened to get his revenge on those who lied to him. We tried to get him to take his medicine but he refused. He sounded very calm on the phone last week, and we figured he was doing better. We apologize for all the trouble this has caused everyone and our heart goes out to the guard involved in this unfortunate incident.
Posted by Thomas Parker at 1:13 am Nov 24, 2008


also someone posted saying his name was Robert Paulson

http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstor...by-Scientology-S=1&blockID=143181&feedID=1198

 

[uniquemand]

Ha! I was right! He felt the Quickening, and new there could be only one! He was an Immortal (except that he wasn't, no one is, he was just delusional).

 

[noclamsonme]

also someone posted saying his name was Robert Paulson

http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstor...by-Scientology-S=1&blockID=143181&feedID=1198

Yeah that last bit's a joke from the movie Fight Club. Disregard.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

This could be the biggest "footbullet" ever...if substianted. Thoughts? :confused2:

Roy

The press seems sympathetic. They said the guard was protecting his life.

I think that if this had happened at a Methodist church or somewhere like that, that people here wouldn't have any reservations about what was done.

 

[lrnobs]

Just skimmed this thread, don't know if this was posted yet:

Our Cousin
He was our cousin who was mentally ill and believed he was an actual immortal. The church of Scientology of Scientology played into his paranoia while denying him the psychiatric medication that was keeping him stable. He had ran out of money and the church would not let him continue his training courses, only recently did he realize that he had been scammed and was so furious he threatened to get his revenge on those who lied to him. We tried to get him to take his medicine but he refused. He sounded very calm on the phone last week, and we figured he was doing better. We apologize for all the trouble this has caused everyone and our heart goes out to the guard involved in this unfortunate incident.
Posted by Thomas Parker at 1:13 am Nov 24, 2008


also someone posted saying his name was Robert Paulson

http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstor...by-Scientology-S=1&blockID=143181&feedID=1198

Robert Fredrick Paulsen, III (born March 11, 1956) (sometimes credited as Rob Paulson or "Vocal Magic") is an American voice actor best known as the voice behind "Raphael" from the 1987 cartoon of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think this kind of incident is one to joke about. Too many people will believe what you post.

 

[AnonOrange]

Well I can speak as a licensed armed guard. No-one in their right mind would try to shoot to "disable". IN my training and in my certification I was instructed "Only draw the weapon if you intend to use it. If you intend to use it then you are aiming to kill the person you are shooting at." If you are in a position where the gun is needed then you have seconds to get it right - so trying to shoot someone in the legs, for example, is a very risky endeavor. You would probably miss and even if you hit them there is a very good chance it would not knock them down. Having said all that - in 10 years I never had to draw a weapon.
true

Sorry buddy, but that's only VALID if you are facing an opponent with a GUN ! (In that case, you must act quickly)

When faced with an opponent with a 5 foot curved sword that cannot be thrown accurately, the first thing to do is to back off 20 feet or so and you're perfectly safe. The three guards at that point should have immediately called the police, advised every everybody to go back inside, get the peper spray out, tasers, tear gas (if available) or what ever can be used to slowly escalate the opposition.

I have been to MANY protest during the last 8-9 months. I have probably seen 30 different scientology security guards. NONE ever had a gun but they all had pepper spray.

Consider the blood patch, very near the car.

Here's what I THINK happened (I'm speculating OK ?): That man arrived and verbally threatened the guards and they recognized him as an ex-scientologist. He probably knew a lot about the illegal activities of scientology and they were aware of that. In other words he was a well known SP (much like Smurf who is very knowledgeable and critical of the Church) He got his first sword out and they knew he was going nuts. They called their superiors and said who he was and what he was doing. The superior ordered a contracted guard with a gun to go out there and shoot the guy. When the armed guard came out, the man now had two swords in his hands and looked threatening (VIDEO SHOWN TO THE POLICE STARTS HERE). The armed guard had sufficient evidence to shoot him.

Clearly, from the blood patch, the man only walked 3 feet from his car before he was shot.

Now, with this man dead, the real story will never be told.
I will bet a small amount with anyone that we will never see that video.

 

[alex]

The issue to be determined is "was lethal force justified?".

We know how the cult will spin it, and that they are joined at the hip with LAPD, so a fair hearing is not likely.

From: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/lethalforce.html

"If he isn't trying to kill you right now, you aren't justified to use lethal force.

It doesn't matter if he is standing there screaming and threatening to kill you, or if has said that he is going to come back and get you or -- in many states -- has just pointed a gun at you, demanded your wallet and is now running away -- those are not considered "immediate threat of death or grave bodily injury." Because he isn't trying to kill you at that exact moment.

Not understanding the meaning of this term will put you in prison for murder. At the very least it will endanger everything you own to litigation....and, odds are, you will lose if you pulled the trigger at the wrong time.

In theory, someone standing across the room waving a knife threatening to kill you isn't offering you an immediate threat. Which means that you cannot legally shoot him. On the other hand, when he starts charging across the room, then you are in immediate and immanent danger of death or previous bodily harm. The reason being is that a knife is a close range weapon and by rushing at you, he is now capable of harming you. Now granted his brandishing the weapon in a threatening manner is in and of itself a crime, but not enough to warrant shooting him."

IANAL

YMMV

Actually you have left out the factor of perception.

If a person believes that their life is threatened and there is reasonable cause for that belief, the actual details are not so relevant.

Maybe to an outside observer the situation is not immediately life threatening, but what counts the most in court is the parties belief at that moment.

inal also but I did stay at a holiday inn express...

 

[uniquemand]

It's police evidence. If you aren't on the jury, why would you expect to see the video?

Your speculation is just that. I appreciate it, and it is a possibility, but I doubt very strongly that the security guard was contracted as a killer. Could be, of course, but I doubt it. More likely he panicked when seeing a nut with some swords charging him.

If I had a gun and some nut was charging me with swords, I'd shoot him, too. I was in the military, and I'm quite aware of the business about shooting center of mass. However, that's with a rifle from distances of fifty or greater meters, where all you have is a silhouette to shoot at. When you have a handgun, in a parking lot, you have a lot of cover to shoot from, and can keep your distance from said nut while you take pot-shots at his legs, if all you have is a gun. A person with no stones would likely immediately shoot for head or chest, when frightened. The worst I'd accuse the guard of was having no stones, he clearly had excellent aim.

 

[AnonOrange]

I appreciate it, and it is a possibility, but I doubt very strongly that the security guard was contracted as a killer.

I didn't say "contracted as a killer". What I meant was that scientology probably keeps on hand an armed guard (who is not normally shown to the public). When the situation is such, the man is told to do his job. That contractor is probably a scientologist who has been trained to obey orders.

 

[uniquemand]

Yeah, and what I said was that was entirely speculation, and that I doubt it very much, because while I don't doubt they have armed guards or guns not normally shown to the public, I do doubt strongly that the purpose of such is to kill people who are known critics.

 

[MichelleAsWell]

not joking

Robert Fredrick Paulsen, III (born March 11, 1956) (sometimes credited as Rob Paulson or "Vocal Magic") is an American voice actor best known as the voice behind "Raphael" from the 1987 cartoon of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think this kind of incident is one to joke about. Too many people will believe what you post.

I'm not joking--I cut and pasted comments from this story on CNN--as I made clear in my post title. Thought people who could check names and completions and whatnot might be able to verify info.

the notion that this guy was mentally ill, told to stop his meds and then cut off when he ran out of money is hardly far fetched and explains a lot....

 

[lrnobs]

I'm not joking--I cut and pasted comments from this story on CNN--as I made clear in my post title. Thought people who could check names and completions and whatnot might be able to verify info.

the notion that this guy was mentally ill, told to stop his meds and then cut off when he ran out of money is hardly far fetched and explains a lot....

From your first post when I saw "He was our cousin...", it looked to me like you were a family member who had personal information. Then later it says "also someone posted saying his name was Robert Paulson" which makes it appear to me that you don't know who it was. After review I see "Posted by Thomas Parker at 1:13 am Nov 24, 2008".

Then here:
"I cut and pasted comments from this story on CNN".

So is this from the comments section from CNN? Anyone can post there and hide their identity. I guess we should just wait until the police release his name. I apologize if you thought you were passing on real information.

 

[TheSneakster]

Exactly! Why does a church need security guards?

Ask the Roman Catholic Church why they have a couple hundred Swiss Guard armed with assault rifles (with fixed bayonets) and why the Pope rides around in special "Pope Mobile" with a huge armored bulletproof glass viewing box he stands within so the crowd can see him.

A nutter showed up and shot Pope John Paul II at a public service, IIRC.

RCC has had the Swiss Guards for like 500 years because The Vatican has needed to be defended by them for that long.

Sorry, there is nothing even remotely unusual about a church in Hollywood area (nutter HQ of Southern California) having armed security, in fact *many* of them do.

Michael "The Sneakster" Hobson
I am *not* anonymous.

 

[alex]

Ask the Roman Catholic Church why they have a couple hundred Swiss Guard armed with assault rifles (with fixed bayonets) and why the Pope rides around in special "Pope Mobile" with a huge armored bulletproof glass viewing box he stands within so the crowd can see him.

A nutter showed up and shot Pope John Paul II at a public service, IIRC.

RCC has had the Swiss Guards for like 500 years because The Vatican has needed to be defended by them for that long.

Sorry, there is nothing even remotely unusual about a church in Hollywood area (nutter HQ of Southern California) having armed security, in fact *many* of them do.

Michael "The Sneakster" Hobson
I am *not* anonymous.

And in fact the Roman Catholic church has a past of crimes that make even the worst accusations against CoS seem insignificant.

Talk about a religion that has killed!

 

[lrnobs]

the worst accusations against CoS seem insignificant.