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The Wins

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
OT abilities are near and dear to the heart of a large number of ex-Scientologists and Scientologists, but these may be easily confused with what may be called the "occult" or "magick." Extraordinary or paranormal abilities are well documented in various traditions and can be replicated. The thing about it is that people who commonly do extraordinary things that surpass what is "normal" often do not know how they do what they do.

Uri Geller is a good example, because he was studied at several universities and taught large groups paranormal skills. I did a workshop with him where he sprouted seeds. He also has written several books.

I've been interested in the paranormal for 55 years because I was able to do some things at age 4 that surprised and frightened my parents. I realized I could not do some things in front of my parents because it upset them.

I have also done OT III and believe that what is accomplished with these dealing with charge. Levitating, for example, is an ability but charge on it is something else.

I have seen levitation three times. Once when I a group of friends were at a picnic and one mentioned that she had read an article on how to do it. Four people each put a finger on a key spot on the body of an obese 5th person, who weighed at least 300 pounds. We were laughing and talking as we did it then the guy start rising straight up in his chair about 2 feet. When he realized he was levitating he panicked. I told him to push his body back into the chair and it slowly went back to the chair. He didn't want to try it again, so that was the end of that levitation.

There are several key elements embedded in this story that I believe explain how we did what we did. One of the keys is the points on his body where we each placed one finger. Another is that we really had no counter-intention because we just wanted to see if it would work. The obese man's intention stopped the levitation.

Krsanna

Reading this I am totally amazed that some adults can even dress themselves.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
OT abilities are near and dear to the heart of a large number of ex-Scientologists and Scientologists, but these may be easily confused with what may be called the "occult" or "magick." Extraordinary or paranormal abilities are well documented in various traditions and can be replicated. The thing about it is that people who commonly do extraordinary things that surpass what is "normal" often do not know how they do what they do.

Please cite ANY "paranormal" ability that has been "well documented" and is "can be replicated".

Uri Geller is a good example, because he was studied at several universities and taught large groups paranormal skills. I did a workshop with him where he sprouted seeds. He also has written several books.

Uri Geller?? He has the "paranormal ability" of a pebble. The man has been exposed enough times more times than a playboy centerfold. He's not a bad conjuror.
 

krsanna

Patron
What you define as adult may contribute to your surprise. By adult, do you mean someone in a body over the age of 21? Or do you mean a being with some maturity in understanding and ability? Grey hair and missing teeth in an aging body does not necessarily equate with a mature mind and adult understanding.

Although I realize you may be surprise, your surprise may be a function of your own maturity.

Can you tell me a little bit about your surprise that some adults can dress themselves?

Krsanna
 

krsanna

Patron
You don't cite any expose that is supported with good evidence. The Stanford Institue did a lot of study with paranormal abilities as did Thelma Moss. These were well documented. Please provide references to any credible documentation for an expose for Uri Geller.

Geller said that people used to ask him why he wasn't wealthy if he could do the things he did. One day, according to Geller, he decided that was a good question. He decided to make some money with his abilities and is now a millionaire. He made his money locating oil and precious gems.


If you want to have a serious conversation about paranormal abilities and replicating them, you need some verifiable evidence. Othewise, the conversation degenrates into a he said / she said deal.

As far as spoon bending goes, I've done that many times and a friend of mine has a basket full of spoons that have been melted and bent. The first time I did it was by accident. I went to a workshop conducted by former astronaut Brian Leary, Professor of Physics at Princeton. I wanted to see what he was doing and didn't take a spoon when they were handed out. Someone handed me a spoon and I was holding it when the guy next to me asked if my spoon was hot too. I felt the spoon to see the temperature and the darn thing started drooping then curled. One hour later, the metal was room temperature and bent in a curl.

A cleared cannibal is a cleared cannibal. A cleared occultist is a cleared occultist. Scientology did not produce occultists but could clear them. The fact that one guy is not talented in the occult does not mean the next guy isn't.

David LeBaron in Seattle could at will manifest stones that dropped from the ceiling. I wasn't a student of his but I have friends that were. I knew his ex-lover who told me he asked David to let him sit next to him the next time he manifested the stones. He was convinced David was a fake. David agreed and his ex-lover said that David wasn't doing anything tricks. The stones began manifesting.

I have several friends who kept some of the stones and made jewelry out of them. I was never interested in the stones.

Krsanna
 

krsanna

Patron
Brian O'Leary, Professor of Physics at Princeton, wrote a book entitled "The Second Coming of Science," in which he traveled to several countries to meet with people who worked wtih the paranormal. His book basically introduced and interviewed people who performed extraordinary feats. I don't know if his book is still in print (I bought the book about 20 years ago and did a workshop with O'Leary.

He was also an Apollo astronaut, and I looked him up on Wikipedia for you. It was in O'Leary's workshop that I first bent a spoon holding it lightly n my hand without any force. The metal heated up and curled when I felt the stem to find the temperature.

Brian Todd O'Leary was one of the sixth group of astronauts selected by NASA in August 1967. This group of eleven were known as the scientist-astronauts, intended to train for the Apollo Applications program -- a follow-on to the moon landings.

Since the entire program was soon cancelled, the scientist-astronauts had plenty of spare time on their hands. They nicknamed themselves the 'XS-11'. O'Leary himself resigned in disgust and wrote about the experience in his first book, The Making of an Ex-Astronaut.

O'Leary was the Deputy team leader for NASA Mariner 10 Venus-Mercury television science team. He has authored five other popular books and over 100 peer-reviewed articles in the field of planetary science and astronautics[1].
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
You don't cite any expose that is supported with good evidence. The Stanford Institue did a lot of study with paranormal abilities as did Thelma Moss. These were well documented. Please provide references to any credible documentation for an expose for Uri Geller.

Let's start with "The Turth about Uri Geller" By James Randi.

Penn and Teller's How to Play with Your Food

That's two sets of magicians debunking Geller's schtick.

Its the Stanford Research Institute and it failed to document anything. You seem to be under the illusion that anything at all has been "verified" no it has not.

Geller said that people used to ask him why he wasn't wealthy if he could do the things he did. One day, according to Geller, he decided that was a good question. He decided to make some money with his abilities and is now a millionaire. He made his money locating oil and precious gems.

ROFLMAO!! Oh really? Do produce something more than repeating Geller's self serving hubris.

If you want to have a serious conversation about paranormal abilities and replicating them, you need some verifiable evidence. Othewise, the conversation degenrates into a he said / she said deal.

As soon as you can bring some evidence to the table - there can be discussion, You are correct. Thus far there have been NONE. Please, come up with something, I'm all ears.

As far as spoon bending goes, I've done that many times and a friend of mine has a basket full of spoons that have been melted and bent. The first time I did it was by accident.

Take your replicatable ability immediately to the randi foundation - there is a million bucks just waiting to be picked up. Go ahead, the world will be astounded.

Until you can actually DO it and do it under verifiable conditions what you are blowing is hot air. Pure and simple.

Off you go - when you have the million bucks from Randi and have proved it to the world then I will be interested in a basket of bent spoons - not before.

You could ask Uri to go with you.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Brian O'Leary, Professor of Physics at Princeton, wrote a book entitled "The Second Coming of Science," in which he traveled to several countries to meet with people who worked wtih the paranormal. His book basically introduced and interviewed people who performed extraordinary feats. I don't know if his book is still in print (I bought the book about 20 years ago and did a workshop with O'Leary.

He was also an Apollo astronaut, and I looked him up on Wikipedia for you. It was in O'Leary's workshop that I first bent a spoon holding it lightly n my hand without any force. The metal heated up and curled when I felt the stem to find the temperature.

Brian Todd O'Leary was one of the sixth group of astronauts selected by NASA in August 1967. This group of eleven were known as the scientist-astronauts, intended to train for the Apollo Applications program -- a follow-on to the moon landings.

Since the entire program was soon cancelled, the scientist-astronauts had plenty of spare time on their hands. They nicknamed themselves the 'XS-11'. O'Leary himself resigned in disgust and wrote about the experience in his first book, The Making of an Ex-Astronaut.

O'Leary was the Deputy team leader for NASA Mariner 10 Venus-Mercury television science team. He has authored five other popular books and over 100 peer-reviewed articles in the field of planetary science and astronautics[1].

O'Leary: I first saw crop circles in 1991 in England. I then wrote a whole chapter on the subject in my book The Second Coming of Science. In the book, I questioned the physical process by which they are formed. I believe that it is an electromagnetic energy, or force field--a psychokenetic thing--where whatever consciousness impinges on the wheat stalks causes the base of the wheat stalks to temporarily become plastic and bend over without being broken or and then very quickly resolidify, and continue to grow quite normally.

Yep, there you go, what a guy.
Fooled by people with planks on their feet.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
KRYSSANA
The fact that LRH worked with a specific area of data but not others does not invalidate the area with which he worked. But, he was a jealous researcher capable of wrath when his boundaries were crossed. He was misleading and was able to spin a pretty good mystery. Some still are in the mystery pie.

BB
I agree. He did though forward knowledge. When he returns, and if, you, I,
or better someone more qualified can run him on FPRD, would be good. . :)
 

Terril park

Sponsor
DIV 6
For me OTIII was a "gnostic" experience, in that only after completing Ot I and OT II was I able to run and experience the process of OTIII. To me, the process has little to do with the Space Opera stuff, and has everything to do with running out abberated stable data and charge on groups of beings.

I have a friend who is studying Bhuddist Meditation, who recently was introduced to a method that "has been kept pure in a tradition of 2000 years".
It entails finding pressure areas in the body , and concentrating on them until they "unravel". Much like the OT III process without a meter....
BB
I do consider it mysterious. But I and almost all I know find that OT 1-3 works.
I consider your other comments valid. Don't want to come off as
patronising. :)

My highest training is NED interne sans levels, + way much reading and interactiing with the most highly trained.

I'd prefer OT 3 with a meter. But back then? Lol! Go for it.

bb
 

Alan

Gold Meritorious Patron
Mmmmmm! What does it matter if someone believes you have psychic abilities or not?

If you have psychic abilities just use them to make your life easier.

Need a couple of hundred thousand dollars? Lots of ways to use your PS.

Need your own plane.....your local casino will provide the funds.

Need to build a fortune.....just pick the right real estate and invest there.

Need a beautiful, aware partner.......well..........:)

The non-believers can happily non-believe, and the doers can happily do. Everyone wins.

Alan
 
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Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Mmmmmm! What does it matter if someone believes you have psychic abilities or not?

If you have psychic abilities just use them to make your life easier.

Need a couple of hundred thousand dollars? Lots of ways to use your PS.

Need your own plane.....your local casino will provide the funds.

Need to build a fortune.....just pick the right real estate and invest there.

Need a beautiful, aware partner.......well..........:)

The non-believers can happily non-believe, and the doers can happily do. Everyone wins.

Alan

I use a cellphone for telepathy. (I can turn it off)
The web and TV for clairvoiance (I can turn it off)
Airlines and cars for teleportation. They're faulty, but, have a better track record than 'other practices' :)

But, there's a *market* for bet spoons!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220097671975&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:11

Zinj
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
LRH made a fundamental mistake in describing "OT abilities" in MEST terms (intending people and objects to act, occupying other or multiple bodies, being "outside" your body).

This is confused false data (altered importance, wrong source, etc) It is a lack of understanding of his own Theta/MEST theory and shows that he basically thought of the spiritual being as only being effective or worthwhile if it could push Mest about!

I could do that before I got into Scientology! I could get my body out of bed, expel gases out of its orifices and scowl at a thug and make him thump me! It is really easy to be Hubbard's definition of OT. I could perform the sex act and occupy two bodies at once, and I could create/mock up new bodies by perfoming this dual body occupancy.

If you are looking for physical proof of the spiritual you are wasting your time.

Back to the original story in this thread, something happened in Div6's spiritual realm. This produced a certainty. "As above, so below" - the physical world confirmed the spiritual experience.

Since leaving Scn, I am slowly stripping away LRH's imposed false data. I believe true exteriorisation comes from interiorising. "The way out is the way through". Somehow we interiorised into this body/world. I am examining what this body really is. Who this seer who sees and feels and thinks and knows really is. What is really at the heart and center of this thing called me? What is this connection I feel with others?

I think LRH's concept of OT and exteriorisation is more to do with escape than becoming more spiritual. I believe true mastery of the physical universe comes from understanding the spiritual. Not by measuring it or "proving" it but by experiencing it.

:)
 

krsanna

Patron
Mick -- Here's a link with some scientific investigation on anomalies associated wtih genuine crop circles. Human made crop circles do not display the electromagnetism and magnetites found in genuine crop formations. Planks to not produce magnetites commonly found in genuine formations. Investigation of genuine formations show that Brian O'Leary was on the right track in his initial observations.

http://www.bltresearch.com/

Sloppy drivel about guys with planks doesn't score any points. Brian O'Leary's work is supported in several areas of investigation and he bent spoons with thousands of people in the presentations he did.

The Stanford Research Institute (SRI) did produce data that was later used by the military. I'll dig out some of my books and post some of it for you.

Pat Price was one of the first people who worked with Russell Targ at Stanford. I mention this name because I may be able to find some mention of him when I dig out Russell Targ's book. I also personally knew Pat Price's wife and know that when Pat died the FBI knocked on her door and asked to see Pat's office. They went through his office with a fine tooth comb, looking for something they did not talk about with his wife.
 

krsanna

Patron
Cheap wins -- One of the cheapest wins that LRH promised was increased IQ's. Only the very informed, and possibly not-quite-bright, would buy into that claim. The IQ test that Hubbard presented was a sham that was never supported with any kind of factual data. It was never correlated with the guys who came up with the idea of an Intelligence Quotient. Giving a client a flimsy test that's supposed to measure IQ then giving the same test to the same person after an intensive of auditing proves nothing.

Mensa members argue among themselves over what IQ really is, but the Mensa IQ test is a battery of about 10 components that measures various kinds of analytical skill that takes hours. Alternatively, Mensa will accept some other evidence of demonstrable intelligence. What Mensa knows for sure is that if the same tests are given to 100 people, 2 will score as its members; so Mensa memberes are the 98 percentile of all people who take the same battery of tests. Many Mensa members settle on the idea that they are good problem solvers.

You can verify this by joining some Mensa groups and reading their literature. LRH never provided any kind of research or data to back up his claim that Scientologists are smart and get smarter.

In the first year I was in a Scientology org, I wondered why some of the people -- staff and students and PC's -- didn't seem very smart. Then I realized that some Scientologists weren't very smart. They didn't perform well in demonstrable problem solving and could come up with whacky solutions. To this day no substantial evidence that Scientology increases IQ has ever been presented.

Yet, some ex-Scientologists and Scientologists take cheap wins on the idea, totally unproven, that Scientologists are smart people and get smarter.

This is a dangeroursly cheap win.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Mick -- Here's a link with some scientific investigation on anomalies associated wtih genuine crop circles. Human made crop circles do not display the electromagnetism and magnetites found in genuine crop formations. Planks to not produce magnetites commonly found in genuine formations. Investigation of genuine formations show that Brian O'Leary was on the right track in his initial observations.

http://www.bltresearch.com/

Sloppy drivel about guys with planks doesn't score any points. Brian O'Leary's work is supported in several areas of investigation and he bent spoons with thousands of people in the presentations he did.

The Stanford Research Institute (SRI) did produce data that was later used by the military. I'll dig out some of my books and post some of it for you.

Pat Price was one of the first people who worked with Russell Targ at Stanford. I mention this name because I may be able to find some mention of him when I dig out Russell Targ's book. I also personally knew Pat Price's wife and know that when Pat died the FBI knocked on her door and asked to see Pat's office. They went through his office with a fine tooth comb, looking for something they did not talk about with his wife.

The 'Stanford Research Institute' is to Stanford University as the 'Oxford Capacity Analysis' is to 'Oxford University' :)

That could be a question on an 'IQ Test' :)

Zinj
 

krsanna

Patron
Lionheart -- The topic of this thread is wins. You say: "I believe true mastery of the physical universe comes from understanding the spiritual. Not by measuring it or "proving" it but by experiencing it." Babaji said some similar things AND regularly produced phenomena in physical terms and taught that these phenomena are not spiritual truth. In fact, that was one point at which I entered the discussion on this thread. The ability to produce occult phenomena is sort of like language, in that the potential for this is germane to the nature of humankind and is more highly developed in some than in others.

The OT levels do not produce masters of occult phenomena. The OT levels deal with some areas of case and are useful to many. At the same time masters of occult phenomena exist, but I've never seen one come out of Scientology.

Scientology did not address the spiritual to any extent, in terms of 7th and 8th dynamics. The first four dynamics were the only ones recognized in the early literature. I don't know the date when LRH expanded the dynamics to the eight, and maybe someone who does know can provide that information.

The wins in Scientology were largely in the realm of faith, because there was no real science to it in terms of scientific protocols. Scientology was able to win as a faith system in the Supreme Court by comparing its beliefs to Buddhism. (And it was a damn poor match with Buddhism.) It never produced a science. It never produced occult masters.

Yet, in its limited scope I suggest it did produce some real value, which has nothing to do with abilities of the occult that real occultist produce. If I had to start from scratch, I would do much of the Bridge again for a few things I gained from it.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
Lionheart -- The topic of this thread is wins. You say: "I believe true mastery of the physical universe comes from understanding the spiritual. Not by measuring it or "proving" it but by experiencing it." Babaji said some similar things AND regularly produced phenomena in physical terms and taught that these phenomena are not spiritual truth. In fact, that was one point at which I entered the discussion on this thread. The ability to produce occult phenomena is sort of like language, in that the potential for this is germane to the nature of humankind and is more highly developed in some than in others.

The OT levels do not produce masters of occult phenomena. The OT levels deal with some areas of case and are useful to many. At the same time masters of occult phenomena exist, but I've never seen one come out of Scientology.

Scientology did not address the spiritual to any extent, in terms of 7th and 8th dynamics. The first four dynamics were the only ones recognized in the early literature. I don't know the date when LRH expanded the dynamics to the eight, and maybe someone who does know can provide that information.

The wins in Scientology were largely in the realm of faith, because there was no real science to it in terms of scientific protocols. Scientology was able to win as a faith system in the Supreme Court by comparing its beliefs to Buddhism. (And it was a damn poor match with Buddhism.) It never produced a science. It never produced occult masters.

Yet, in its limited scope I suggest it did produce some real value, which has nothing to do with abilities of the occult that real occultist produce. If I had to start from scratch, I would do much of the Bridge again for a few things I gained from it.

I agree. BTW, as far as I remember the 8 dynamics appeared in Fundamentals of Thought which was first published in the mid-fifties.

You are right there is very little addressing of the 7th & 8th dynamics in Scientology although I did do some 7th stuff in my Grades processing.

If I remember the start of this thread correctly, it concerned a non-physical experience and an apparent correlation in the Physical Universe. There then followed a discussion about whether the link was real or a coincidence and then went on to discuss physical proof of spiritual things. So I was prompted to put forward the idea of two kinds of knowing.

My post-scn techniques have been mainly concerned with increasing my understanding of the spiritual and so far it bears little or no resemblance to LRH's theories of "OT".

So I postulated the idea that Hubbard was incorrect and confused about the spiritual nature of existence. (I'm not talking about psychic phenomena rather mystical or spiritual experience) It then occurred to me that LRH's lectures about OT were actually to do with escaping or controlling MEST which seems rather limited and mundane compared to the panorama of spiritual and mystical phenomena.

BTW my definition of the "OT levels" is pre-NOTS when OT IV to VII were promising LRH's control over MEST, pushing it around, intending over a distance, escaping from it. The abilities gained on each level used to be published on the Grade Chart. This plus LRH's lectures is where I am coming from when I talk about his confusion over Theta/Mest.

I think LRH was a very MEST oriented person and he would mainly see spiritual matters as controlling MEST.

I'm simply saying we don't have to limit ourselves to Hubbard's narrow and in my opinion incorrect view of Theta, the mystical and the spiritual. Being connected to the real nature of the spirit seems to me to be real "OT".
 
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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I think Lionheart has provided the most reasonable and true data in this thread.

And I think Roland is probably the funniest person on this board.

So far.

Alanzo
 

krsanna

Patron
As regards the Stanford Research Institute, I found that some information that was declassified in the 1990's under the Freedom of Information Act. The results of the research and the CIA's involvement in the project are now in the public domain. I copied some information below with a link.

The SRI obtained demonstrable results even with CIA agents. Pat Price was a Scientologist who did early research with the SRI and died in similar circumstances as those in which Quentin died. A cause of death was never determined, but that's not the point of this thread. Ingo Swann was also associated with Scientology. Pat Price and Ingo Swann had much natural ability that was later developed in various ways.

I'm a little disappointed that nobody took any shots at Thelma Moss's research at UCLA. She got some great results that could be replicated. Some of these are covered in her book, "The Probability of the Impossible."

A good IQ test does not rely entirely on language or acquired education. Mensa's battery of tests for IQ includes components of symbolic logic requiring no language and a verbal component that is not read. Some of the ex-Scientologists and Scientologists might want to invest a few bucks to do the Mensa testing to see how accomplished they in fact are in handling basic intelligence. But Mensa only tests for the 98 percentile and some of the finer requirements are for the 99 and 99.5 percentile. I'd like to see the results of the 99.5 percentile of problem solvers among Scientologists.

One of the good things about the high IQ groups is that whether I agree with the views of members, I know that I'm talking to someone who has achieved some basic problem solving and intelligence. On a forum like this one knows only that the members have at least a casual acquaintance with Scientology, but that means nothing in terms of real abilities.

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html

During the eight-month pilot study of remote viewing the effort gradually evolved from the remote viewing of symbols and objects in envelopes and boxes, to the remote viewing of local target sites in the San Francisco Bay area, demarked by outbound experimenters sent to the site under strict protocols devised to prevent artifactual results. Later judging of the results were similarly handled by double-blind protocols designed to foil artifactual matching. Since these results have been presented in detail elsewhere, both in the scientific literature [6-8] and in popular book format [9], I direct the interested reader to these sources. To summarize, over the years the back-and-forth criticism of protocols, refinement of methods, and successful replication of this type of remote viewing in independent laboratories [10-14], has yielded considerable scientific evidence for the reality of the phenomenon. Adding to the strength of these results was the discovery that a growing number of individuals could be found to demonstrate high-quality remote viewing, often to their own surprise, such as the talented Hella Hammid. As a separate issue, however, most convincing to our early program monitors were the results now to be described, generated under their own control.

First, during the collection of data for a formal remote viewing series targeting indoor laboratory apparatus and outdoor locations (a series eventually published in toto in the Proc. IEEE [7]), the CIA contract monitors, ever watchful for possible chicanery, participated as remote viewers themselves in order to critique the protocols. In this role three separate viewers, designated visitors V1 - V3 in the IEEE paper, contributed seven of the 55 viewings, several of striking quality. Reference to the IEEE paper for a comparison of descriptions/drawings to pictures of the associated targets, generated by the contract monitors in their own viewings, leaves little doubt as to why the contract monitors came to the conclusion that there was something to remote viewing (see, for example, Figure 1 herein). As summarized in the Executive Summary of the now-released Final Report [2] of the second year of the program, "The development of this capability at SRI has evolved to the point where visiting CIA personnel with no previous exposure to such concepts have performed well under controlled laboratory conditions (that is, generated target descriptions of sufficiently high quality to permit blind matching of descriptions to targets by independent judges)." What happened next, however, made even these results pale in comparison.
 
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