After Scientology - Getting Over the Shame and the Guilt

[GoNuclear]

What do we do about the shame and guilt we personally experience after Scientology? (and how do we recover afterwards?)

Is it a good thing - pointing out our flaws for us so that we may improve, or a bad thing - dragging us down into destructive self-loathing?

This thread is a spin-off from Sallydance's Story: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26180-Sallydannce-s-Story&p=722295#post722295 and some misc other posts.


It begins with Sallydance's original reflections:


About my shame…



I want to write about my shame before I write about other things. I’m writing about the session I had where I became a limp rag doll, lost my marbles and then my health. I’m writing about other things too. But this shame – it has to come first.

Shame has been my companion for far too long. In very hushed tones here, for these are feelings I do not easily put into words, I am about to make myself completely vulnerable. It would be easier for me, a 50 year old woman, to post a photo of myself in a bathing suit than write about this. It would be easier to discuss periods and menopause than do this. But I’m going to do this because it is time. It is time to let it go and suck up the vulnerability.

Deep breath.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26180-Sallydannce-s-Story/page49

That is all just too complicated. True, I'm a guy, not sure if this works for chicks, but, it might be worth a try. It goes like this:

1) open a can of beer
2) chug it down
3) belch loudly and with great gusto
4) repeat steps 1 thru 3 until guilt and shame are gone.

Chicks who take my advice are good on steps 1 and 2, but tend to omit step 3, which, believe it or not, is the most important part of the process. Do not neglect step 3. For added effect, you might also include a step 3A after you have done 1 thru 3 a few times, which is to smash the beer can on your forehead. If that hurts too much, keep repeating 1 thru 3 until you can do 3A with no pain. By that time you should have achieved at least some temporary relief from guilt and shame, but have someone else drive you home.

Pete

 

[sallydannce]

That is all just too complicated. True, I'm a guy, not sure if this works for chicks, but, it might be worth a try. It goes like this:

1) open a can of beer
2) chug it down
3) belch loudly and with great gusto
4) repeat steps 1 thru 3 until guilt and shame are gone.

Chicks who take my advice are good on steps 1 and 2, but tend to omit step 3, which, believe it or not, is the most important part of the process. Do not neglect step 3. For added effect, you might also include a step 3A after you have done 1 thru 3 a few times, which is to smash the beer can on your forehead. If that hurts too much, keep repeating 1 thru 3 until you can do 3A with no pain. By that time you should have achieved at least some temporary relief from guilt and shame, but have someone else drive you home.

Pete

God I've got so much to learn! I thought...well, I thought step three was the whole point of drinking beer!

I'm working on the beer-can-smashing-on-forehead thing. More beer, more belching...can in hand, smash into head...more beer, more belching..

Am I getting it?

Wine begone!

 

[Bill]

I think it is important to realize that, for most people, they weren't trapped into Scientology because they were stupid but because they were aware there were problems that were not being solved by conventional methods and they were looking for answers.

Most people, in my opinion, got in because they wanted to help others. That's pretty cool.

Yes, we were gullible, but I'm not sure thats entirely bad. I'd rather go through life mostly trusting other people than the reverse.

I admire Scientologists because they wanted to help. I commiserate with ex-Scientologists because, yes, we were gullible and we were betrayed.

Bill

 

[The_Fixer]

Be careful not to confuse beer can with beer bottle....

This can happen quite easily after several beers.

Anyways, before I derail this any further, I have bought Brene's book to look further into it all.

 

[sallydannce]

I think it is important to realize that, for most people, they weren't trapped into Scientology because they were stupid but because they were aware there were problems that were not being solved by conventional methods and they were looking for answers.

Most people, in my opinion, got in because they wanted to help others. That's pretty cool.

Yes, we were gullible, but I'm not sure thats entirely bad. I'd rather go through life mostly trusting other people than the reverse.

I admire Scientologists because they wanted to help. I commiserate with ex-Scientologists because, yes, we were gullible and we were betrayed.

Bill

Perhaps gullibility and the willingness to be vulnerable are closely related.

One time I was talking to a doctor. She mentioned something about people that get into controlling groups are not usually stupid/unintelligent people, that their common connection seems to be that they are seekers. She contrasted the seekers against those that spent their lives sitting on a sofa watching TV, those that weren't willing to explore and so forth.

Maybe "seekers" are more willing to become vulnerable. Maybe gullibility isn't the major factor that snares and entraps. I'm not saying that gullibility does not come into play, but that possibly the willingness to try to make the world a better place, the willingness for self-improvement, is more about vulnerability than gullibility.

Just a thought banging around in my head as I do laundry.

 

[Caroline]

[video=youtube;X4Qm9cGRub0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=X4Qm9cGRub0[/video]

Thank you so much for posting the videos, and for all the great input on this thread.

It occurred to me that Dr. Brown's talk has a particular relevance to us as Scientologists and ex-Scientologists.

3:12 [C]onnection is why we're here. It's what gives purpose and meaning to our lives.[...]

[C]onnection, the ability to feel connected, is neurobiologically how we're wired. That's why we're here.

[...] Because when you ask people about love, they tell you about heartbreak. When you ask people about belonging, they'll tell you about the most excruciating experiences of being excluded. And when you ask people about connection, the stories they told me about were about disconnection.

So very quickly, about six weeks into my research, I ran into this unnamed thing that absolutely unravelled connection, in a way that I didn't understand or had never seen.

And so I pulled back out of the research and said, "I need to figure out what this is." And it turned out to be shame.

If what Dr. Brown says is true, there is also a direct link between the shame some of us feel as ex-Scientologists and Scientology's SP doctrine, specifically its disconnection policy. The stigma we face of having been suckered into Scientology is bad enough. But disconnection generates shame.

It is a false shame. There is no reason to feel shame for being disconnected by the Scientologists. What undoes this shame is standing up and fighting back against the SP doctrine. It simply has to go.

 

[sallydannce]

Thank you so much for posting the videos, and for all the great input on this thread.

It occurred to me that Dr. Brown's talk has a particular relevance to us as Scientologists and ex-Scientologists.



If what Dr. Brown says is true, there is also a direct link between the shame some of us feel as ex-Scientologists and Scientology's SP doctrine, specifically its disconnection policy. The stigma we face of having been suckered into Scientology is bad enough. But disconnection generates shame.

It is a false shame. There is no reason to feel shame for being disconnected by the Scientologists. What undoes this shame is standing up and fighting back against the SP doctrine. It simply has to go.

My bolding in last para. Yes! Indeed! Let the shame inherently festering within the doctrine of the cult of scientology unravel!

Mess with the love connections of a human being and you can bring them to their knees. Hubbard specialised in this.

For you:

 

[Gottabrain]

Here it is.

Awesome!

Hey Type4, would you mind cross-posting your comment and article about conartists and guilt from Sallydannce's thread over here? I've tried several times but for some reason it keeps glitching for me.

 

[AussieCase]

I hear you. I don't have answers and there may never be perfect ones--this is not Scientology with its bullshit answers to everything.

There are many of us who were involved and are no longer are. In my case I ask how was my mind warped? Is this something that I can never live down. For many years I basically did not talk about it, and I put it out of my mind. Is that a good solution? I have also participated a little on ARS initially and Tony's blog recently.

There is a Carey Burtt short that hits the main points of how we were manipulated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJfm71I0OyU

It is my experience that Scientology magnifies our flaws to exploit us.

I also at some point went to see a psychologist, and I stumbled across Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT) which seems to me a very rational approach to this problem of shame. Others may have a different approach.

I think most people get caught up in this at a vulnerable moment. It is an experience I regret, but I cannot change it now. I can work to reduce its lingering effect.

As to telling others. I think that is up to you. I only tell my close friends; it is like a shameful affair that I keep hidden or at least avoid discussing.


Best wishes,

What do we do about the shame and guilt we personally experience after Scientology? (and how do we recover afterwards?)

Is it a good thing - pointing out our flaws for us so that we may improve, or a bad thing - dragging us down into destructive self-loathing?

This thread is a spin-off from Sallydance's Story: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26180-Sallydannce-s-Story&p=722295#post722295 and some misc other posts.


It begins with Sallydance's original reflections:


About my shame…



I want to write about my shame before I write about other things. I’m writing about the session I had where I became a limp rag doll, lost my marbles and then my health. I’m writing about other things too. But this shame – it has to come first.

Shame has been my companion for far too long. In very hushed tones here, for these are feelings I do not easily put into words, I am about to make myself completely vulnerable. It would be easier for me, a 50 year old woman, to post a photo of myself in a bathing suit than write about this. It would be easier to discuss periods and menopause than do this. But I’m going to do this because it is time. It is time to let it go and suck up the vulnerability.

Deep breath.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26180-Sallydannce-s-Story/page49

 

[Gottabrain]

Thank you so much for posting the videos, and for all the great input on this thread.

It occurred to me that Dr. Brown's talk has a particular relevance to us as Scientologists and ex-Scientologists.
Originally Posted by Dr. Brown in the first video

3:12 [C]onnection is why we're here. It's what gives purpose and meaning to our lives.[...]

[C]onnection, the ability to feel connected, is neurobiologically how we're wired. That's why we're here.

[...] Because when you ask people about love, they tell you about heartbreak. When you ask people about belonging, they'll tell you about the most excruciating experiences of being excluded. And when you ask people about connection, the stories they told me about were about disconnection.

So very quickly, about six weeks into my research, I ran into this unnamed thing that absolutely unravelled connection, in a way that I didn't understand or had never seen.

And so I pulled back out of the research and said, "I need to figure out what this is." And it turned out to be shame.

If what Dr. Brown says is true, there is also a direct link between the shame some of us feel as ex-Scientologists and Scientology's SP doctrine, specifically its disconnection policy. The stigma we face of having been suckered into Scientology is bad enough. But disconnection generates shame.

It is a false shame. There is no reason to feel shame for being disconnected by the Scientologists. What undoes this shame is standing up and fighting back against the SP doctrine. It simply has to go.

I SO agree with you! My first protest and vid was, in one way, my best - it was by far the most raw, the most emotional. Yet it was also the most difficult, it was so hard coming forward. I was terrified, I hadn't even slept the night before, I was so nervous about coming out publicly and it showed - which made it also my worst video. To tell you I felt BETTER as it went on and afterward would be the understatement of the year. Personally standing up and fighting this abusive group and its abusive practices FREED me like nothing else could.

It's a funny thing about shame. ALL shame is false though, don't you think? Because it is imposed upon a person by a group according to its culture of what it believes is best for the group's survival by its own (right or wrong) set of codes and conduct. Scientology had inhumane codes and horrible conduct, designed to further Scientology's own expansion. We left this only to find that the entire group of Scientology was in violation of the larger group's (mankind's, society's) codes of what is right or wrong, criminal or acceptable, humane or not. OUCH!

Pack animals that have been segregated from the group experience shame, but
GUILT, on the other hand, is entirely human.

Guilt is rooted in personal conscience, judgement, goals, etc.

I wonder how many of us initially felt excluded from another group to have become vulnerable to scn in the first place? Or even felt we didn't quite fit in to our prior group?

With the parrots, ONLY those who have been excluded or exhibit noticeable differences will go off to seek other groups. And ONLY those who have been previously excluded are open to become full members of another flock/group.

So perhaps there was a bit of instinct in play here, too, when we first joined. Meaning that our decisions to join and to stay were perhaps not 100% self-determined, independent and conscious.

That same instinct, to go off elsewhere and be open to different groups, different experiences, to explore our own differences - both strengths and weaknesses, may be behind every great human accomplishment and the core seed of all individual discovery or creation.

Man's greatest accomplishments are, in fact, borne of shame.

What do you think?

 

[Type4_PTS]

Hey Type4, would you mind cross-posting your comment and article about conartists and guilt from Sallydannce's thread over here? I've tried several times but for some reason it keeps glitching for me.

Not sure if you meant one or both of my posts so I just put them both here (although I think the second one is better, after I got some sleep:
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is it so hard to talk about this deep sense of embarrassment/shame about having been in scientology? What the hell is this all about?

Glenda, I just finished watching the first video on shame (which is awesome) and have caught up on this thread.

Thank-you!


With regards to the question of yours I quoted - I came across what I believe is relevant data on a website I came across started by Annie McGuire, a fraud consultant to the California Department of Justice. I will quote some short excerpts from the site. (the emphasis was added by myself). But I recommend you go to the actual site and read it there as the formatting is better:
http://www.fraudaid.com/backstage/victims_con_artists_look_for.htm

WHAT A CON ARTIST LOOKS FOR
IN A SCAM VICTIM

Those whose job it is to fight fraud every day know that no one is immune to fraud, and that there are only 3 kinds of people in the world: those who have been scammed and know it; those who have been scammed and don't know; and those who haven't been scammed yet. In fact, what is an obvious scam to one person looks like a great opportunity to another; and vice versa.

From the National White Collar Crime Center: Only 7% of scam victims contact an enforcement agency:
"A curious finding of the research is that a wide disparity exists between how Americans believe they will react when they are victimized by a white collar crime and how they actually do react. While the number of victimizations was higher than predicted, the reporting of these crimes remained low. Only seven percent of respondents contacted an enforcement agency. Consumer protection agencies, Better Business Bureaus, and prosecutors combined received an additional 14 percent."
(Excerpt from National White Collar Crime Center /NWC3, 2002)

Why don't more victims report fraud crimes? Because con artists are masters at instilling a sense of fear, shame, and guilt in their victims.

They are masters of domination and intimidation, artfully weaving them into their script. And... they are masters at qualifying their prey.
^Top

The chosen
Con artists choose you very carefully. They are only interested in those people who can be turned around to believe in them without question, who can be manipulated to believe in their illusions. They don't merely seek out the greedy or the weak or the stupid. Not at all. They seek out the needy. They sniff and snuffle around until they find someone who has an unfulfilled desire that even you yourself may be unaware of until the carrot is dangled in front of your face.
Con artists will stalk anyone whose weaknesses or strengths can be used to advantage. Scan through the character traits below, and you will see the con artist's menu. As far as he is concerned any character trait can be exploited and manipulated once your needs have been established. No one is immune.

 

[Gottabrain]

^^ Thanks! Yeh, the second quote was best.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Cross-Posted From:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?26180-Sallydannce-s-Story&p=721894&viewfull=1#post721894
----------------------------------------------------------------------




When I woke up this morning I looked around further at this website I referenced above, and while the intent of the site was to focus on financial scams it's amazing how some of it so closely applies to Scientology.

From a section entitled: "What a Con Artist Will Tell You"
http://www.fraudaid.com/backstage/ho...manipulate.htm

"The first step is for the con artist to determine your personality profile and identify your needs. He or she might zero in on your pride, your ego, your fears, your dreams, visions of riches, religious conviction, an illness, or your desire to get a special deal, or a combination of several traits. Whatever works best for the given situation.

The next step is to make himself or herself appear to be the only person on whom you can rely for the fulfillment of your wishes, desires, and/or personal safety. Keep in mind that in order for the scam to work, the scam artist will gain your complete and unquestioning trust, and they are very, very skillful at doing this.

The final step is the move on your money or property........"

Why does this all sound so familiar?


In another section on the same site entitled.....
Why scammers are so seldom sent to jail
http://www.fraudaid.com/backstage/wh...go_to_jail.htm

.......there are some points which are more pertinent to the question of yours I was responding to:

Con artists manipulate their victims to keep them from filing fraud reports.

Shame, guilt, and fear

Once a con artist has completed his scam, he will yank the rug out from under you. Suddenly, without warning, you have to come to terms with the fact that you have been taken to the cleaners.

—The effect is devastating - it was planned to be —

From the very start of a scam you are kept just slightly off balance so that you feel you must cling to the con artist for support. During the entire manipulation, you are being emotionally positioned so that when the con artist disappears, you will feel as if you have pushed off a merry-go-round. In effect, you were.
You are suddenly left without the rudder in whom you believed with all your heart. To admit you were wrong can be emotionally shattering. You are left reeling and alone with that voice inside your head yelling, "What have I done?!"
Dignity and self-esteem are gone, replaced with shame, guilt, embarrassment, and anger (usually self-directed). You think I'm going overboard with this description? Not really. Not only have I been there, but I get letters from victims every day and that's exactly how they all feel.

Why victims don't report fraud

> Many don't know where to turn, so they don't file a report anywhere.

> Many are so distraught that they contact every agency they can think of, which has no effect at all.

> Many are extremely upset when they try to talk to law enforcement, end up merely sounding hysterical, no clear story emerges, and they give up without having given the police anything to go on.

> Many have been threatened in one way or another by the scammer and are afraid of retribution from either the con artist himself or law enforcement.

> And finally, the majority feel themselves to be damn fools and are not about to make it worse by going public. They just can't bring themselves to admit they've made a mistake. They cannot bring themselves to admit that they have been set up by a scammer (emphasis added by me)

 

[Gottabrain]

^^ Yeh, that's the one! Very thought provoking post.

 

[Type4_PTS]

^^ Thanks! Yeh, the second quote was best.

You're very welcome.

And for anyone interested, Dr. Brene Brown will be making a series of public appearances beginning September 12th, the day after her next book is released. Her calender is here:
http://www.brenebrown.com/events/

And here's a link to the actual book on Amazon that can be pre-ordered:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1592407331/wwwbrenebrown-20

 

[Stat]

For me, it's all of what was said above by the wonderful people, plus the activism,
which most of us posting here are involved in, one way or another, anyway.

 

[degraded being]

.
.
Just an extended dimension to the guilt and shame topic....
I was well and truly fucked up with guilt and shame by the Catholics.
My parents were co conspirators, as were so many others in society in those days,
for all sorts of complex reasons.
If i had to be punished with the psych weapon of guilt and shame to the extent that it fucked up a lot of my life it might not have been so bad if I had actually done something to deserve it.
As long as those fucking bastards (catholics and others) are creating that sort of ruin, there will be a steady supply for cultists to find those ruins and exploit them.

 

[Gottabrain]

.
.
Just an extended dimension to the guilt and shame topic....
I was well and truly fucked up with guilt and shame by the Catholics.
My parents were co conspirators, as were so many others in society in those days,
for all sorts of complex reasons.
If i had to be punished with the psych weapon of guilt and shame to the extent that it fucked up a lot of my life it might not have been so bad if I had actually done something to deserve it.
As long as those fucking bastards (catholics and others) are creating that sort of ruin, there will be a steady supply for cultists to find those ruins and exploit them.

You're absolutely right, DB. What a sobering thought. I'm sorry you went through that. I'm sorry for all those who suffered with guilt and shame controls, and those who still are - live bait for cultists.

There is also a wonderful earlier thread about Guilt that I just found:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?6157-Residual-guilt

 

[onthepes]

I love this thread. I thought about "Shame and Guilt" today. It was poignant I can tell you. I was working in a government role via an agency and was contracted until early November. We work with "scripting" - meaning you follow a certain patter. I struggle with this as I like to make things my own. I also struggle with getting proof of identity from the customers.
Two members from my agency confronted me today about 2 phone calls that I took as a Call Centre Operator and they made me wrong for my call handling. One of them said "You must be dissapointed in yourself". I said "No". The other said "The customers must be upset with you". Again I said "No". There was a bit more to that meeting. I was made to sign a document advising that if I made another mistake my contract was over. They asked me how I felt about what I have done - in a damning way. I said "Well how should I feel. Should I be happy? Should I be dancing? Of course not". I got a similar discussion with my Team Leader.
I thought I was doomed , but did not expect a call from Mrs Make Wrong later today. She said "Your assignment is over". I said "Understood. By the way, I don't feel dissapointed in myself. I want you to know that".
Why would I mention that here? Well, it was a good example of "enforced" shame and guilt. It has taken me a long time in this life to understand this. They wanted me to feel bad. When I did not that was the end for me. It shook their reality. They wanted me to propitiate. For me , there is no problem with taking responsibility for aiding and abetting my demise. However, that does not constitute shame.
Sorry I am mentioning this here, but back in the day, I used to go to my fellow staff at my old Org and they would give me a super duper ack on the whole thing. Now that I have happily severed my ties with the Org, it is tough going to get an ack like I used to. Love Greg

 

[Gottabrain]

I love this thread. I thought about "Shame and Guilt" today. It was poignant I can tell you. I was working in a government role via an agency and was contracted until early November.<snipped for brevity >They asked me how I felt about what I have done - in a damning way. I said "Well how should I feel. Should I be happy? Should I be dancing? Of course not". I got a similar discussion with my Team Leader.
I thought I was doomed , but did not expect a call from Mrs Make Wrong later today. She said "Your assignment is over". I said "Understood. By the way, I don't feel dissapointed in myself. I want you to know that".
Why would I mention that here? Well, it was a good example of "enforced" shame and guilt. It has taken me a long time in this life to understand this. They wanted me to feel bad. When I did not that was the end for me. It shook their reality. They wanted me to propitiate. For me , there is no problem with taking responsibility for aiding and abetting my demise. However, that does not constitute shame.
Sorry I am mentioning this here, but back in the day, I used to go to my fellow staff at my old Org and they would give me a super duper ack on the whole thing. Now that I have happily severed my ties with the Org, it is tough going to get an ack like I used to. Love Greg

Oh wow, Greg. But good for you! Can you imagine what you would feel like a few days now, a week from now, a month from now if you had groveled to keep that job? Can you imagine the increasing tiredness, the energy draining out of you, the sleeplessnes, the unsettledness, the downer it would be to stay in a job that you hate, because you are treated like that and cannot have integrity?

To be honest, I just went through something like that a few weeks ago. So maybe we are sort of traveling along parallel lives here together now.

One other thing I decided in these two weeks is that I will work for myself from now on - I've had too many experiences like that and I'm sick of it, too. When I had my own business, I was darn happy and the money was just as good. So I'm getting back on the horse, mate, and I wish you to work at what you enjoy with your kind of people.

Now let's have a toast to ending your dead-end job and to getting out there and doing what you love. My shout.