A letter to Tory/Magoo

EP - Ethics Particle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Somos el Barco

Yes and please keep doing it too, Tory, it works. :)

An acknowledgement from Panda is like gold :wink2: and I say the same. :yes: EP (aka Mike Horton)

From "Memorial Peace and understanding Service":

"May the Infinite Light of Wisdom and Compassion so shine within us that the errors and vanities of self may be dispelled; so shall we understand the changing nature of existence and awaken into spiritual peace.

To all Enlightened Ones...who are present in their teachings, we pledge our loyalty and devotion. We dedicate our lives to the way of life they have laid down for us to walk. We resolve to follow their example and labor earnestly for the enlightenment and welfare of all mankind."


Gatha:Somos El Barco
Chorus:
Somos el barco, somos el mar Yo navego en ti, tu navegas en mi. We are the boat, we are the sea I sail in you, you sail in me.

Verse 1
The stream sings it to the river, the river sings it to the sea The sea sings it to the boat that carries you and me.

Verse 2
Now the boat we are sailing in was built by many hands And the sea we are sailing on, it touches many sands.

Verse 3
So with our hopes we raise the sails to face the winds once more And with our hearts we chart the waters never sailed before.

Closing: Boundless Goodwill
All: Let us cultivate boundless goodwill.
Let none deceive another, or despise any being in any state.
Let none in anger or ill-will wish another harm.
Even as a mother watches over her child,
so with boundless mind
should one cherish all living beings,
Radiating friendliness over the whole world,
Above, below, and all around, without limit.

-Metta Sutta
 

Lovinglife625

Patron with Honors
I never, ever said anything of the sort--so please
stop putting words in my mouth.

I am not some PR for MR. I have made a few posts over there, and will continue to as I do believe communication helps more, when it's honest. Your telling me to tell Marty
is ridiculous. You go ask him your own questions. I don't know him any more than you do, nor do I owe anyone that job. You want it---you do it. I'm doing what I can, my way.

BTs2Free---when are ya comin' back to LA? :yes:

Best,

T

Hey Tory

I know where you are coming from and I am 100% with you. I too post over there once in a while when I think it is prudent.

You're one of my real heros who was carrying the touch of truth and exposing abuses even before I was. You did it when almost no one had your back.

Well I have your back and I'd go to battle with you against the cult and its abuses anyday if it's needed!

Love ya!!!

Thanks for all you continue to do.

Cya soon my dear friend.

Larry
 

rhill

Patron with Honors
I do believe communication helps more, when it's honest.

If someone feels like walking on eggs when expressing a thought, an opinion, if someone feel the needs to careful craft and word his thought, opinion, to the point of poorly conveying his real though, opinion, if someone feels the need to self-censor up to an extent, in order to have his thought, opinion deemed acceptable, does this still qualify as "honest communication"?
 
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byte301

Crusader
I feel obliged to answer your post regarding working together with Rinder and Rathbun and not criticizing them.

First of all I want to say that I have the utmost regard for you.

But on this matter I think you are horribly mistaken.

I am not a critic of Scientology because OSA doesn’t want me to be a critic.

I don’t say what I say because OSA doesn’t want me to say it.

I don’t live my life as a reaction against what OSA wants.

I say what I say because it comes from the heart.

What I am saying now comes from my heart.

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend.

To me, associating that slogan with regards to working with or supporting Rinder and Rathbun is just is another way of saying “put aside what you conscience tells you is right and work with us for the greatest good.”

Been there, done that.

I am not against the Church of Scientology because in believes in engrams, Clears, and OTs.

I am not against the Church of Scientology because Miscavige is in charge.

I am against the Church of Scientology because what it does is offensive to my sense of human dignity and my sense of right and wrong.

If the Church didn’t harm people I could care less about what they believe.

If it didn’t harm people I could care less about who is in charge.

What is offensive to my sense of human dignity is the dehumanizing treatment--the intimidation, the cruelty, the disconnections, the making a mockery of families and loyalty, and the daily attempts to break people by pressuring or tricking them to compromise or surrender their personal integrity.

And the pressure is applied all in the name of working together to accomplish some objective for the greatest good.

And that pressure is applied by people. And the people at the top who made Scientology cruel by doing this were Miscavige, Rinder, and Rathbun.

It is their character and lack of conscience that determines the level of cruelty in what they do, not policy.

I recovered from Scientology when my conscience forgave me for compromising what was in my heart.

My conscience won’t forgive me a second time. Do you think yours will?

I am not going to surrender my sense of right and wrong to support, work with, or even be quiet about Rinder and Rathbun.

I think you don’t really know or understand who and what you are dealing with.

Critics and exes will rue the day they accepted Rinder and Rathbun into the fold.

Those two will undermined and sabotage any other objective that gets in the way of their own.

They will humiliate, ruin, and crush people who get in their way.

That is their Art of War, regardless of who their enemy is.

And their enemy was and will eventually again be you and other exes and critics.

To them, people are a means to their ends.

They never treat people as and end in themselves.

That is why friendship and family accounts for nothing in Scientology.

Only those who furthers their ends are of any value. To them, all people are expendable as people.

Don’t compromise when you see them doing this to people again.

I suspect that most people who accept them will look the other way again until it is too late.

And that is what allows all the abuse to continue.

That is what allowed it in the Church, and now it will happen again in the critic movement because they will be a part of it.

The ends do not justify the means.

The means are the end.

If you work with these guys you will be doing what you did when you were a part of the Church before--running interference for people who actively administered their contempt for their fellow man.

In fact, you’ll be doing it for the exact same people.

Please, I beg all critics and exes, don’t do it again.

Don't trust these guys, don't listen to these guys, and don't consider them to be your friend or on your side.

You will regret it.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Excellent post TAJ. I totally agree.

As for M & M: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUbGLVvfB7Y
 
Was there *anywhere* in what I said that mentions
surrendering what you believe in? No.

As I said in an earlier thread where you posted this, and deleted it:

It never ceases to amaze me how words I say can be
twisted around to mean something 100% not what
I said.

Do you *honestly* think I am in the mind set of
"the greatest good for the number of dynamics"???

If you are, there's really nothing else left to say.

People .....read, look, listen make up your own minds.

You cannot lose then.

Don't listen to me, or he or she----LOOK.
LISTEN
LEARN

MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND.

Blessings TO ALL :flowers2:

My best,
:rose:

Tory/Magoo

O knock it off. You've twisted what I said in my post. You are making this adversarial, not me.

I looked, listened, and learned, I followed my conscience and I have made up my mind.

And with a decent respect to the opinions of the people on this board I explained my position.

I find it interesting that so far not one support of Rinder or Rathbun has yet said to me, "Okay, I disgree with you, but you should follow your conscience."

Instead, I've gotten comments here and on other threads implying that there is something wrong with me precisely for following my conscience!

I thought following one's coscience is what got people out of Scientology

The contempt and diminuation for the individual conscience that Rinder and Rathbun perfected and made a career of in Scientology has already started against some critics who oppose them.

I think with some critics, Rinder and Rathbun had them at "Hello."

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Marty has *not* 'Gotten people out of Co$'. He's gathered them around himself and created his own 'power base', setting himself up as an authority, even to the point of instructing them on correct '2D'.

But, mostly he's doing so in order to set himself up as an 'authority' for media and government; as the 'go to guy' for Scientology Criticism. Government and media have always hated that there is no 'central organ' to go to that's in opposition to the Cult. Marty is attempting to make himself that.

Marty has *not* yet explained his motives or objectives. People *think* he has, because he's taken a leaf from Ron's book and given them a 'mystery sandwich', which they can fill in with their heart's desire, without him having to specify anything. Everyone can believe that Marty 'represents' *his* views, because Marty has left that blank.

He *has* specifically said that he 'doesn't want to take over the 'Church' of Scientology'. Some, who want an end to the 'Church' swallow that. Others, who *want* him to take it over can believe he's just being coy.

He's specifically objected to any outside investigation or prosecution of Scientology, including shutting people up who call for the jailing of David Miscavige. He's called for Miscavige to step down; he's objected to people calling for Miscavige's arrest. He knows full well that Miscavige can *not* be removed, but, he allows people to think he can be because he's all things to all Martyologists.

He's fairly successfully managed to split Scientology opposition into those who think he's 'going in the right direction' and people who recognize that he's not 'going' in any direction at *all*, except to prevent outside investigation and prosecution of Scientology as an organization *and* David Miscavige himself.

He has done nothing to 'hurt' David Miscavige, beyond calling him some names and accuse him of bagatelle offenses such as assault on people who will never file criminal charges. He's revealed *nothing* of the actual crimes committed in the name of the 'Church'. Nothing beyond what was already known and, in those cases, he's done what he can to minimize the damage.

To my mind, Marty Rathbun is running interference for the 'Church'. All his 'opposition' is a charade. The hope is that Scientology can, yet again, go through a fake 'reform' and reconstitute itself as shiny and new and get the outside pressure off.

More than at any time in its history, at least since the FBI raids of the '70s and the Snow White prosecutions, Scientology is facing public scrutiny and the *actual* possibility of investigation and prosecution.

Everything Marty is doing is *specifically* aimed at defusing that; at preventing that.

For those of you who think that Marty Rathbun is 'doing good'; please specify:

What is the good he's doing? Where's this supposed to go? How is it supposed to get there?

Dump the feelgood love and accept all for a moment and think. What is being accomplished? Saying mean things about David Miscavige?

Or, is it muddying the water to prevent what hundreds and thousands of people have now spent decades of effort to achieve; the actual *prosecution* of the 'Church' of Scientology for the *crimes* committed by and in the name of the 'Church'?

As yourselves; what is Marty *actually* doing? Not what he's allowing you to *think* he's doing. Not what he's insinuating that he's doing. Not some secret 'behind the scenes' pie in the sky he's coyly implying.

Watch what he's *doing*.

Am I saying don't read or post to Marty's blog. Of course not. Do so. Do so honestly and actually *read* what he writes. Post honestly and *ask* questions; and, see how far you get. And stop giving him this automatic 'well, he's still finding himself' free pass. He doesn't want it (supposedly), it's just your own wishful thinking.

For Christ sake people; *think*.

Zinj
 

byte301

Crusader
lurkanon,

I have lived for YEARS with people's skepticism of myself.
The DAY I said to Yaude (who, in 2000, they had flown in, as my auditor to 'fix everything')---"You could pay me 1 Million
Dollars and I still won't pick up those cans".

Not even 24 hours later, were posts sliming me. So I know slime---and frankly, I am not some blind cheerleader that they're using, nor am I any "Opinion Leader" they're using to dupe. That's offensive to me, but you go believe
whatever you want.

Some people will twist whatever they have to in order to make their point "right". I think most of us like being right, but I've also learned from Andreas it's great to allow
another to make you wrong. You learn when you can listen and hear.

I'm merely using communication.
Your needs for others to do more than you ever have,
is interesting. Why don't YOU go on TV and dish out
all this knowledge you have?

I know, I know---they, they, they. Start with you,
and come tell us something you have done to help
expose the abuses of the "church" of $cientology.
And spare me putting more people down. It really
gets OLD.

My best to all
:rose:
Tory/Magoo

Tory, I was surprised at this post. I don't think anyone on this thread has shown any disrespect to you or attacked you for posting on Marty's blog. Some of us don't agree with you on this issue but that's our right. Just as it's your right to post anywhere you want. But here you are implying that lurkanon hasn't done anything of value to take down the cult.

Do you know lurkanon? How do you know what lurkanon has or hasn't done?

I HAVE made up my mind about Marty. I have watched him over the months he's been blogging. He let his minions insult and degrade Alanzo. He called Dennis a punk. He tried to derail the inquiry. He whines about some minor fair game he and Rinder have gotten when they themselves actually ruined people's lives.

I have seen no actual remorse from either of them yet people on this and other boards have bared their souls and apologized for far less then M & M ever did.

He censors his board so how can one go about honestly communicating?

Worst of all he goes to the media and tells them about the beatings but leaves out the things that could actually do damage in any legal way.

I appreciate that he at least came clean about participating in the physical abuse but that doesn't excuse the things he's NOT talking about by any stretch.

Like TAJ said, "The enemy of my enemy is not my friend." Or...If you sleep with dogs you'll wake up with fleas. I would no more align myself with Marty then I would have with Hitler's henchmen.

I'm not a turn the other cheek sort of person. All you get for that is another bruised cheek.
 

bts2free

Patron with Honors
I never, ever said anything of the sort--so please
stop putting words in my mouth.

I am not some PR for MR. I have made a few posts over there, and will continue to as I do believe communication helps more, when it's honest. Your telling me to tell Marty is ridiculous. You go ask him your own questions. I don't know him any more than you do, nor do I owe anyone that job. You want it---you do it. I'm doing what I can, my way.

BTs2Free---when are ya comin' back to LA? :yes:

Best,

T

Hey Tory, I'm not sure when I'm coming back. It's probably going to be a while. My hands are full right now with what I'm doing, but I still try to post and do things in this fight when I can.

As far as M&M are concerned, I have my own POV about them. When I first started trying to post on Marty's blog, I pointed out the fact that the abuses didn't start with Miscavige - they started with Hubbard. This didn't go down well. And several of the things I wrote never got published. Logan tried to put me down and question my credibility several times. Marty even told me to go back to the "natter boards." Fact of the matter is that over in Marty's group, they are still 100 % believers in Hubbard and the Tech. If you wish to communicate with them, and be heard, your communication has to be qualified - or be prepared to get shot down in flames. Do I agree with this? No. Is that Scientology? Yes. "Always attack, never defend."

I've changed my strategy though. There are certain questions I think M&M can answer, and I've realized that there is a way to ask things and present yourself over there without having to compromise your own position or POV.

Magoo, I know you're not a cheerleader for M&M, and you are who you are, and say what's on your mind. People really like you, and you're open and approachable to talk to about anything. You've always been about open communication, and that's why so many people look up to you and think very highly of you. You have many, many friends.

I also see that there are a lot of folks who are pissed off at M&M for the way they've carried themselves, things they've said, things they've denied and things they've brushed off since their appearance on the scene. Apparently, they've been quite effective at getting people to leave the CoS and turn against Miscavige. I think that's a good thing - although, it would be ideal for people to just wake up completely and realize that the whole thing from the very beginning was a scam. But, sheep will be sheep and Marty is their new shepherd. And they probably need more time to be in the real world and wake up.

Whatever Scientology turns into from here on out, it will never carry the power it used to have. We, the wrecking crew have won. It's only a matter of time before we see Miscavige blow to Bulgravia or behind bars. And Scientology becomes a reading room religion. The OG, South Park, Tom Cruise and Anonymous did more damage than M&M will ever do.

Remember, we (and that includes you Tory) paved the road while they were licking DM's shoes, and now it's entertaining to watch them attempt to drive it. M&M should be thanking you for all that you did to build the stage that they're now a sideshow on.

Keep speaking your mind Tory. Love you.
 

bts2free

Patron with Honors
Marty has *not* 'Gotten people out of Co$'. He's gathered them around himself and created his own 'power base', setting himself up as an authority, even to the point of instructing them on correct '2D'.

But, mostly he's doing so in order to set himself up as an 'authority' for media and government; as the 'go to guy' for Scientology Criticism. Government and media have always hated that there is no 'central organ' to go to that's in opposition to the Cult. Marty is attempting to make himself that.

Marty has *not* yet explained his motives or objectives. People *think* he has, because he's taken a leaf from Ron's book and given them a 'mystery sandwich', which they can fill in with their heart's desire, without him having to specify anything. Everyone can believe that Marty 'represents' *his* views, because Marty has left that blank.

He *has* specifically said that he 'doesn't want to take over the 'Church' of Scientology'. Some, who want an end to the 'Church' swallow that. Others, who *want* him to take it over can believe he's just being coy.

He's specifically objected to any outside investigation or prosecution of Scientology, including shutting people up who call for the jailing of David Miscavige. He's called for Miscavige to step down; he's objected to people calling for Miscavige's arrest. He knows full well that Miscavige can *not* be removed, but, he allows people to think he can be because he's all things to all Martyologists.

He's fairly successfully managed to split Scientology opposition into those who think he's 'going in the right direction' and people who recognize that he's not 'going' in any direction at *all*, except to prevent outside investigation and prosecution of Scientology as an organization *and* David Miscavige himself.

He has done nothing to 'hurt' David Miscavige, beyond calling him some names and accuse him of bagatelle offenses such as assault on people who will never file criminal charges. He's revealed *nothing* of the actual crimes committed in the name of the 'Church'. Nothing beyond what was already known and, in those cases, he's done what he can to minimize the damage.

To my mind, Marty Rathbun is running interference for the 'Church'. All his 'opposition' is a charade. The hope is that Scientology can, yet again, go through a fake 'reform' and reconstitute itself as shiny and new and get the outside pressure off.

More than at any time in its history, at least since the FBI raids of the '70s and the Snow White prosecutions, Scientology is facing public scrutiny and the *actual* possibility of investigation and prosecution.

Everything Marty is doing is *specifically* aimed at defusing that; at preventing that.

For those of you who think that Marty Rathbun is 'doing good'; please specify:

What is the good he's doing? Where's this supposed to go? How is it supposed to get there?

Dump the feelgood love and accept all for a moment and think. What is being accomplished? Saying mean things about David Miscavige?

Or, is it muddying the water to prevent what hundreds and thousands of people have now spent decades of effort to achieve; the actual *prosecution* of the 'Church' of Scientology for the *crimes* committed by and in the name of the 'Church'?

As yourselves; what is Marty *actually* doing? Not what he's allowing you to *think* he's doing. Not what he's insinuating that he's doing. Not some secret 'behind the scenes' pie in the sky he's coyly implying.

Watch what he's *doing*.

Am I saying don't read or post to Marty's blog. Of course not. Do so. Do so honestly and actually *read* what he writes. Post honestly and *ask* questions; and, see how far you get. And stop giving him this automatic 'well, he's still finding himself' free pass. He doesn't want it (supposedly), it's just your own wishful thinking.

For Christ sake people; *think*.

Zinj

Damn Zinj, You said it better than I ever could. :thumbsup:
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
Fact of the matter is that over in Marty's group, they are still 100 % believers in Hubbard and the Tech. If you wish to communicate with them, and be heard, your communication has to be qualified - or be prepared to get shot down in flames. Do I agree with this? No. Is that Scientology? Yes. "Always attack, never defend."

It's not Scientology. It's blogging. People can and do limit comments on their blogs all the time. A blog inherently has a POV. Some blogs allow more dissent than others.

Some people come in with a barrage of questions, not realizing how they come off. It's kind of like asking someone you just met all kinds of questions about their sex practices. My first reaction would be: "Who are you and why should I tell you anything?" Some of those posts get through, granted, but I'm sure some don't.

On my own blog (not Scn related), I delete interrogations and inflammatory comments. Who has time?

I've changed my strategy though. There are certain questions I think M&M can answer, and I've realized that there is a way to ask things and present yourself over there without having to compromise your own position or POV.

Agreed. Which, btw, is why I read it.

Magoo, I know you're not a cheerleader for M&M, and you are who you are, and say what's on your mind. People really like you, and you're open and approachable to talk to about anything. You've always been about open communication, and that's why so many people look up to you and think very highly of you. You have many, many friends.

I also see that there are a lot of folks who are pissed off at M&M for the way they've carried themselves, things they've said, things they've denied and things they've brushed off since their appearance on the scene. Apparently, they've been quite effective at getting people to leave the CoS and turn against Miscavige. I think that's a good thing - although, it would be ideal for people to just wake up completely and realize that the whole thing from the very beginning was a scam. But, sheep will be sheep and Marty is their new shepherd. And they probably need more time to be in the real world and wake up.

We don't know the whole M&M story, what they're doing behind the scenes. There's been the implication of larger action going forward. I have no personal reason to dislike either of them (I'm not the kind of person who dislikes someone for slighting others unless they've hurt a close friend very badly), and I'm just sitting back to wait and see what happens.
 

FinallyFree

Gold Meritorious Patron
Zinj nails it for me too. (Sorry Mom :p)

No matter how much I try to soften my feeling about the M&M's I come back to exactly what not just what Zinj says, but I could agree with possibly one sentence from very response here.

I have conflicted feelings and propose this: since I am not privy to the exact actions Rathbun has done or statements he has made to be able to weigh and view to see which way 'the scale is leaning' when it comes to the whole good vs. evil when it comes to Rathbun (let's take one at a time eh?).

Can we gather a list, with two columns? Column one: Actions Marty has done to prove he is on board with the Good Fight and say Column Two: actions Marty has done to harm the Good Fight.

Let's expose it. Let's tally it up, measure and weight it. In Public forum with everyone contributing. What say ye ESMB?
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
We don't know the whole M&M story, what they're doing behind the scenes. There's been the implication of larger action going forward. I have no personal reason to dislike either of them (I'm not the kind of person who dislikes someone for slighting others unless they've hurt a close friend very badly), and I'm just sitting back to wait and see what happens.

We don't know the 'whole M&M story' because they're not telling it. We don't know what they're doing 'behind the scenes', unless we go by what we see in plain view and assume more of the same; and, if that's the case, watch out.

Because 'sitting back and wait to see what happens' is exactly what M&M want everyone to do. It's also what the 'Church' wants everyone to do. They want to supplant Scientology Criticism and replace it with impotent faith and trust.

If Marty and Mike really were the kind of counter to the 'Church' that they allow people to conceive them to be, *what* would be the result?

One possiblity; nothing. Everyone would sit back and trust that something was happening 'in the background' until the steam was off and the public scrutiny died down and media and government pressure was off and, people would be able to believe that 'things are better' because they'd never hear about the evil.

Or, a variation; Mike and Marty convince those actually putting pressure on the 'Church' that they are the best way to 'reform' and get credit as the 'Church' installs some mildly reformerish policies, hides its dirty laundry better; offers to reunite families torn apart by disconnection, grants some amnesties to those Mike and Marty have vetted as to not being 'SP/Opterm/Haters/Natterers etc.; and the gushers can all gather together and sing kumbaya/Road to Freedom.

If absolutely necessary, David Miscavige can even 'retire' from day to day operations and allow a lovable figurehead as replacement, and everybody can clap themselves on the back that their effort paid off. Eventually David can 'be forgiven' and take his rightful place as the beloved 'Old Man' of the 'Church' who was only human and made some mistakes, like the rest of us.

Ron showed him how to do it. Davey would no longer be in danger of being indicted, because, after all, he wouldn't be 'running' things any more.

The money and crimes could stay hidden; Ron can be revered and acceptable truth for all will reign.

Naturally, there are other things that could happen, but, I'd love to see what kind of scenarios others come up with. Based purely on what we *know* and on the history of the 'Church' and on the *visible* evidence of M&M's efforts.

Please though; no flying ashtrays.

Zinj
 

Magoo

Gold Meritorious Patron
Damn, I hate Win 7---I keep hitting some button (on the left) and I lose everything. If anyone knows what that is, please tell me. Ok, so let me try this, again. Zinji wrote:

Am I saying don't read or post to Marty's blog. Of course not. Do so. Do so honestly and actually *read* what he writes. Post honestly and *ask* questions; and, see how far you get. And stop giving him this automatic 'well, he's still finding himself' free pass. He doesn't want it (supposedly), it's just your own wishful thinking.

I have never given anyone an automatic "Well, he's still finding himself, free pass"---except new people out---and Marty Rathbun is *not* in that category, nor do I think of him that way. IF I've posted that way, let me clear this up, right here.

You saying **think** is a bit---come on Zinji. I didn't stay in this game, with DAILY Attacks for
10 Y E A R S_--without thinking some, no matter what you think. I agree---I'm not the best writer---but I get by.

I never knew Marty so I wouldn't be the right person to try to talk to him--vs. BTs2Free (who I think worked with him) or Blownforgood, etc. My reason for posting there actually started with what happened to you, Bts2Free.

You probably don't follow my videos---but I made one about what was said, saying that was *not* Ok to me. I also wanted to let Marty and gang know that they were not the first people on the information highway. There are people---who have helped build the road we are walking on, and ALL need to recognize them, imnsho. Some have worked hard, and have passed on. Thankfully, many are still alive. As I've said, I've sat with some, wiping their tears off after thanking them for ALL they have done, without ever being acknowledged by ALL in this Net age.

Then I realized I'd never even tried to post there, so i began. I cannot say I've had a huge welcome---in fact,
few have commented on any of what I've posted. I got I'm not the most welcome kid on the block, but as I've said here--I believe in more communication, not less. Some dude came on pitching how I'm "against the tech, and LRH and a HUGE SP or an unhandled case" and he felt Marty should kick me off, due to posting my one link to my YT site. I went to bed.

It's evolved from there, but 3 people posted very nice responses to this pitch of this guy re disconnection, saying
they felt I shouldn't be kicked off. To most of you, who cares>

You say "Ask questions and see how far you get". I know what you're saying--and you obviously know the answer to that, which is why I am not posting that way. You can say, "Well--you should be able to post whatever you want" and yes, I should...but as a few have posted, this is blog, not a newsgroup--so they're running it as they want, and I respect that.

My goal is communication, not gigantic upsets. As I've said, I'm doing what I feel is right. If people are not willing to even think about hair cuts, expecting me to talk that person into shaving their head is a bit drastic.

I know, some will say, "This isn't about Hair Cuts". I got it.
It was a bad analogy----but I think you get the idea.

Since the day I left, I've said: I wish we were all in one room together. I honestly think live communications would help ALL of us. That not happening---I :pcpunch:
(type).

I know there are people who have been VERY harmed, self included. *I* would love to hear about the programs that have been run on all of us who have had Fair Game run.
Remember, *I* spent 4 HOURS with the Rolling Stone Journalist, only to have the Editor be flown in, and in the article there is one comment by Mike Rinder: "She's a Kook" or some such crap. Janet never once said "I interviewed her for 4 hours and I found_____. It was left with his jack assed statement. Has he apologized to me?
No. Will he? I doubt it. People are people. Move along, is my view. (and that's only one of hundred's of Fair Game actions done to me, by C of $/OSA ops).

Hearing the back end of things may take some time, and meantime, I'm meeting
new people---people who aren't willing to have their beliefs
squashed. I respect that. I think you do, too, when you look at it that way. Thus, I've posted and continued to talk.

I understand Marty is trying to create a safe space for people to come out into. At first I felt like many of you:
SPIT IT OUT. Then I realized he had his own reasons,
and he IS helping people get out---I've spoken to a few, live, who have told me due to his site, they were able to leave. Again, I'm **not** MR or MR's PR. I'm just trying to tell you why I'm there, and how I feel. And no, I won't be posting their names here. They want privacy--as many have over the years, and I understand that, totally.

If I've posted something wrong, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to.

I wish you all well.
:rose:
T
 

lurkanon

Patron with Honors
Tory, I was surprised at this post. I don't think anyone on this thread has shown any disrespect to you or attacked you for posting on Marty's blog. Some of us don't agree with you on this issue but that's our right. Just as it's your right to post anywhere you want. But here you are implying that lurkanon hasn't done anything of value to take down the cult.

Do you know lurkanon? How do you know what lurkanon has or hasn't done?

I HAVE made up my mind about Marty. I have watched him over the months he's been blogging. He let his minions insult and degrade Alanzo. He called Dennis a punk. He tried to derail the inquiry. He whines about some minor fair game he and Rinder have gotten when they themselves actually ruined people's lives.

I have seen no actual remorse from either of them yet people on this and other boards have bared their souls and apologized for far less then M & M ever did.

He censors his board so how can one go about honestly communicating?

Worst of all he goes to the media and tells them about the beatings but leaves out the things that could actually do damage in any legal way.

I appreciate that he at least came clean about participating in the physical abuse but that doesn't excuse the things he's NOT talking about by any stretch.

Like TAJ said, "The enemy of my enemy is not my friend." Or...If you sleep with dogs you'll wake up with fleas. I would no more align myself with Marty then I would have with Hitler's henchmen.

I'm not a turn the other cheek sort of person. All you get for that is another bruised cheek.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This. All of it. And whether Tory posts on Marty's blog or not, is a non-issue, and her posting there is not what is in question here. I personally do not care at all whether she posts there or not, thats her choice. It is not about Tory. Or anyone else who wants to post on MRs' blog. It is about why many do not feel they can trust Marty. And Mike. Simple as that.

And, oh Shiny - you're right, Tory would be surprised if she knew who I was, and what I have done. I choose not to disclose that here as I enjoy this Board for the debates, and am not here to socialise, make friends, or gain anyone's trust - I simply enjoy reading the lively, free discussions, and occasionally posting my POV.

This Board, with its savvy bunch of bright, intelligent people like you, Zinj, Alanzo, Pooks, ABJ, and others is the best cure for cult hubris around. So thanks to ya'all, you have no idea how many lurk and benefit from your bullshit-blasting and common sense. You are doing a great job, and that is the beauty of the free flow of information and expression.
 

rhill

Patron with Honors
this is blog, not a newsgroup--so they're running it as they want, and I respect that.

Nobody ever uttered the idea that "he has no right to run his blog the way he does." If so, I will need a reference on this. Of course he can run his blog the way he wants, it's repeated so often it's becoming a sort of la palissade.

I, however, am also free to comment on the way he runs his blog, and make a point that the way he runs his blog strongly suggest he is still sticking to some of the key Scientology principles which have contributed throughout the decades to the culture of abuses in Scientology, in which he was a top player. I personally believed it needs to be pointed out, and if it's perceived as "disrespect", well that's just too bad.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
This. All of it. And whether Tory posts on Marty's blog or not, is a non-issue, and her posting there is not what is in question here. I personally do not care at all whether she posts there or not, thats her choice. It is not about Tory. Or anyone else who wants to post on MRs' blog. It is about why many do not feel they can trust Marty. And Mike. Simple as that.

There are damn few people here I trust, and very very few people in the world I trust. So I don't see it as particularly strange to not trust Marty or Mike. Or Tory. Or you. Or me.

Trust is earned, and I don't see it as a slight that I (or someone else) hasn't earned it.

I might trust you more if I knew more about what you had done -- and vice-versa. But we don't. Because we don't trust each other.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Ok, so let me try this, again. Zinji wrote:



If I've posted something wrong, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to.

I wish you all well.
:rose:
T

Tory, my post (and posts) were not adressed to you, whether it's on this thread or not. That's not how ESMB works. What I'm saying is addressed to everyone, but, especially to anyone operating on the basis of 'Well, Mike and Marty are doing good things; not enough, but, it takes time'.

This is not personal to you. It's not about you. It's about 50 years of secretive horror perpetrated by thugs with the best of intentions and an absolute certainty that they were operating for a 'just cause'.

Thugs like Mike and Marty.

I don't want an apology from them. I couldn't care less about their spiritual salvation. I don't even particularly care about them being prosecuted for their crimes, except in as much as I suspect that such a prosecution might be the only way to get to the truth. Certainly the only way to get to the truth of Scientology will be a prosecution with raids and arrests and witnesses under oath (even if they perjure themselves, as they will.)

Marty called Mike's most recent TV interview 'professional'. Yup. That's what it was. Mike's been a professional liar for all of his adult life. He's been a professional manipulator of media for the 'Church'. Months ago Mike made the claim that he 'knew things that could put David Miscavige behind bars', but, that he wouldn't reveal them, because he had an 'exclusive' with Panorama, so, please don't ask me any more....

Right. That's 'reach and withdraw' isn't it? Good Tech. Bullshit, but Good Tech. Now that Mike's done his 'professional' interview, we hear that not only did Mike *not* have any kind of 'exclusive' deal with Panorama, but that, since some of the things he said in his hours-long interview were left on the cutting room floor, but, wait, wait, there may be a *sequel*!!!, we shouldn't expect him to talk any more. Apparently 'we might say' that he's dealing with the FBI, according to him. Yes, we might say it. But, even if it were true (patently not) he won't even fill in the blanks about what was *left out* of the TodayTonight story, because, after all, there may be a *sequel*.

Tory, you're an honest and enthusiastic and well meaning person, so, this is *not* addressed to you, because, god knows you're no tactician or expert in the decoding of bullshit. You're probably a wonderful student of human nature when dealing with the 90% wonderful and straightforward people we're most likely to meet.

But, i also suspect your own essential honesty blinds you to the essential evil of people who make a living of fucking with people's heads. When we first heard that Marty Rathbun *wasn't dead* and instead writing a column for a tiny Texas newspaper, it was a curio. Interesting fact, but, nobody was 'calling for his head' or demanding that he 'speak out'.

We know how that goes and, as evil as he'd been in the Cult, few seemed to harbor ill feelings towards him. I certainly didn't. However, not long after that, he showed up *here* and announced that he was open for business, delivering exactly the hokum he'd been administrating when he wasn't busy trying to 'ruin people utterly'.

That naturally raised a few eyebrows and some questions, which were, considering the circumstances, addressed to him relatively politely.

His 2nd post to ESMB was more or less to tell people to fuck off and that, anyone whom he'd harmed, he was willing to 'audit over their upset' free of charge :)

Anyway, by then Marty was becoming more transparent :)

Mike is a different issue. I actually had some hope for him following the SPTimes stories. He *didn't* want to talk, even to sell a bill of goods and apparently only agreed to 'confirm' others' stories after being threatened by 'Church' attorneys. He didn't, like Marty, go the media and *lie*.

Unfortunately, he was eventually brought into the 'fold' and apparently Marty helped get him a job and some jaunts around the world and he's wearing his 'hat' again.

Professional Liar.

So, ask *yourself* what these characters are up to. Ask yourself what's the *best* possible outcome. Don't assume they're being honest; they have no more 'benefit of the doubt'. Ask yourself, 'why do the want *me* to 'support' them?'

Zinj
 
Damn, I hate Win 7---I keep hitting some button (on the left) and I lose everything. If anyone knows what that is, please tell me.

Time to consider Linux, Tory. :D

Check out "Ubuntu". It should be a good fit.

Just say "no" to the Microsoft Monopoly on your information! :yes:



I also wanted to let Marty and gang know that they were not the first people on the information highway. There are people---who have helped build the road we are walking on, and ALL need to recognize them, imnsho. Some have worked hard, and have passed on. Thankfully, many are still alive. As I've said, I've sat with some, wiping their tears off after thanking them for ALL they have done, without ever being acknowledged by ALL in this Net age.

Ah, but the problem is that The MR's have HUGE unacknowledged overts on the earlier refugees from the church, especially those among the most accomplished tech terminals, and are demonstrably unwilling to accept responsibility for those overts. To the contrary, they are still nattering. They've been getting their withholds missed, too, and on a daily basis. :coolwink:

Getting to be "Grumpy Bunnies".

My own take: the MR's are entitled to do whatever they want to do, but they are not entitled to either trust or credence. So far they've done nothing to deserve either. :yes:


Mark A. Baker
 
There are damn few people here I trust, and very very few people in the world I trust. So I don't see it as particularly strange to not trust Marty or Mike. Or Tory. Or you. Or me.

Trust is earned, and I don't see it as a slight that I (or someone else) hasn't earned it.

I might trust you more if I knew more about what you had done -- and vice-versa. But we don't. Because we don't trust each other.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.


Trust Me. :D


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:
 
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