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Alanzo Apologism 101: Does Anti-Scientology Deserve Any Criticism?

Discussion in 'Life After Scientology' started by Alanzo, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    [xtable=skin1|border:0|cellpadding:5|cellspacing:1|bcenter|[email protected]]
    {td=center}[format=cust2]Back in the 80’s, when I, Alanzo, was the Executive Director of the Scientology Mission in Peoria, I wrote HIGH CRIME REPORTS on David Miscavige and every top Executive in Scientology and FEDEXED each of them their own copies.

    I’d discovered that David Miscavige raised the prices for Scientology services 4 times higher than L. Ron Hubbard said they should be. It’s forbidden to go against LRH policy in Scientology – a HIGH CRIME. And since no one could afford the price of auditing in Peoria to go “Clear” I thought it was my duty to ‘criticize’ David Miscavige and the rest of Church leadership.

    What happened to me in the Church after that is a story I will tell later in a blockbuster entitled “Naive Goober: My Story From the Bottom of Scientology”.[/format]{/td}

    L Ron Hubbard taught Scientologists that criticism was an attempt to destroy you.

    Like so much else, L Ron Hubbard was wrong about criticism.

    Criticism is the recognition of a standard, expectation or ideal. When a person or activity isn’t living up to this, one should point it out so the person or activity can get back on track.

    During all 3 seasons of Leah Remini’s Scientology and the Aftermath, Leah Remini and Mike Rinder have sought to make anyone who criticizes them out to be a Scientologist. Because who could possibly criticize the holy work that they are doing but a Scientologist?

    When Leah Remini lies about Scientologists believing in pedophilia to the Hollywood Reporter – should that be criticized?

    When Mike Rinder lies about Shelly Miscavige being “missing”, when he was there when David Miscavige and Shelly separated and has known exactly where Shelly is all while telling people she was missing – should that cynical manipulation be criticized?

    If a person criticizes these anti-Scientologists for lying like this, does that mean the critic must be a Scientologist?

    Do you have to be a Democrat to criticize Donald Trump?


    That’s two-poled thinking, the logic of fanatic tribalism.

    And yet so many people believe no anti-Scientologist should ever be criticized, and those who do criticize them should be attacked, and even fair-gamed.

    This is the very same tribalism that Scientology runs on.

    If it’s wrong when Scientology does it, why is it right when anti-Scientologists do it?

    Anti-Scientology NEEDS to be criticized: The Church of Scientology has not been charged with even one crime in the US since 1979, and David Miscavige is still in power doing whatever he wants to Scientologists.

    I’ve watched this impotence and ineffectual hysteria in anti-Scientology for 20 years.

    Someone should say something.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  2. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    Go away.

  3. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Exactly who are you talking to? I don't know anyone who posts here who fits your description as a member of your anti-Scientology cult. You seem so passionate so ... who are you talking to?
  4. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    What lies? I've personally known of cases where adult Scientologists were sexually involved with girls as young as 13, and the attitude of the HAS was that as long as the parents were OK with it, HCO didn't care.
    J. Swift and Karen#1 like this.
  5. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I never believed in pedophilia as a Scientologist, and knew no other scientologist who did.

    I showed in another thread that the 2nd SP Act refers to pedophilia, and no where after DMSMH in any of his writings anywhere, and especially not in his writings on the 2D, did he ever endorse or condone pedophilia.

    I don't know about your HCO incident. And I do not doubt what you say about your experience. But it certainly wasn't a belief in Scientology and it wasn't in any policy or tech. In fact, as I showed, the opposite was there.

    I did not believe in pedophilia when I was a Scientologist and no one else did either - that I knew in 5 years as staff and public in the midwest and 11 years as staff and public in LA.

    Scientologists do not believe in pedophilia. It is not part of Hubbard's teachings.

    The only person I know who consistently covered up instances of pedophilia and rape in the Church of Scientology was Mike Rinder, as the head of OSA.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  6. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Anti-Scientology deserves criticism.
  7. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Your imaginary "anti-Scientology cult" deserves criticism, just stop trying to lump ESMBers into that category.
  8. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    When have Mike or Leah ever said all their critics must be Scientologists? Docs please.

    Underage girls in the Sea Org get court orders to emancipate them with their parent's permission so they can get married. Call it whatever you want but I think that is a very unwise practice. Unfortunately the US has also been permitting a lot of this in the Muslim community and I expect it will become much more prevalent.

    To paraphrase Clinton, "It all depends on what the meaning of missing is". I suppose if David and Shelly's handlers know where she is she technically isn't missing.

    No, Republican Never Trumpers hate Trump for busting up their gig as much as Democrats. Should be on a political thread.

    "Tribalism" as used here is from a buzz word contrived by socialist professors who were against colonialism and capitalism. Already been discussed at length.

    Anti or Exes or whatever criticize each other here all the time. We're doing it now. False premise.

    No charges of crime in the US since 79? Court cases are being brought against them all the time. Tripping over semantics or can't use google?
  9. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    There's "official" Scientology policy. And then there's reality.

    Reality is the senior status of the "Bolivar" policy (HCO PL Responsibilities of Leaders). Reality is the attitude that you get the stats up by whatever means necessary. Reality is you take out SPs by whatever means necessary.
  10. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    All points taken.

    Except - in order for you to say what you said about tribalism, you probably did not bother to watch the video. I get it. But it really does expose a fundamental human dynamic at work when we talk about Churchies, Exes, Antis and Never ins. As well as democrats, republicans, bear fans and Vikings fans. It is an advance in understanding humans over "cults", I believe.

    That's what *I* talk about.

    Not Anti-Scientology Cult.

    I have never talked about an Anti-Scientology Cult.

    Criminal is different from civil. Very important distinction in this arena with regard to Scientology legal matters.

    The penalties for criminal convictions are of a much more severe nature, and the investigations penetrate much deeper, than the discoveries and penalties for civil judgements.

    Criminal penalties are deprivation of property, liberty (imprisonment) and in some states, even your life.

    Civil punishments never go there. Civil judgements are about money only. The Church has plenty of money for civil suits. They can not stop criminal probes and penalties with money.

    As CO OSA for 22 years, Mike Rinder, and his boss David Miscavige, know this intimately.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  11. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Well said. And I agree.

    But only Sea Org staff operate on this basis, which is a very small minority of all Scientologists who were ever involved.

    This distinction is important to make if you wish for your criticisms, and targeting for correction of Scientology to be accurate.
  12. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    At Flag, I worked with a girl who married and had a baby at 16, to a husband in his 30's
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  13. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I don't doubt you.

    Can you provide the LRH reference endorsing or condoning this?
  14. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    There is plenty about how this is legal on the net so I won't get into all that here but our readers should understand that berthing accommodations for singles in the Sea Org is very crowded. The best single berthing I ever had was 3 to a 10 x 10 ft. room and that was only after I was proven to be a valuable staff member. It depends on the org that you are contracted to also. AO staff were treated better than ASHO because they were the big money earners. CMO got much better accommodations than anyone. Usually both in Los Angeles and Clearwater it was more like 10 to 12 to a room with bunks stacked 3 high. Larger dorms had around 24 people sharing one bath and that bath with one small sink might be shared with another large dorm or a couple's room on the other side. The quickest way to a better living situation in the Sea Org is getting married so there is a lot of incentive on that basis alone. Remember, these people essentially work or are on-call 24/7. Your room mate can have a day shift and you have nights. People are coming and going, even waking you up to ask post related questions. They could be of either sex - work took priority over gender privacy considerations.

    Both males and females are taught that they are thetans or spirits that have lived thousands of lifetimes and done everything and been both male and female already so Sea Org members think of themselves as being more mature for their age and their parents think the same way.
  15. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    In social science, these living conditions and the moral values associated with them are not mainstream.

    This is called a sub-culture.

    Mainstream morals and sub-culture morals almost always conflict.

    The most important point is where something is considered criminal - the line between legal and illegal.

    Thus, I think it is imperative we stick to the criminal statutes and stay out of the mainstream vs sub-culture moral differences.


    First, the cops can't do anything about moral differences. They can only do something about illegal things - things that actually violate legal statutes.

    Second, when you deal only in moral hand-waiving (moral outrages) you get dangerously close to wanting to the police to take action against a sub-culture for acting in purely legal ways. This is called religious persecution.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  16. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Sea Org members have to have their Commanding Officer approve a CSW to get married regardless of age. That CSW will include either the parent's express approval before getting the court order or the court order itself. I don't have a copy of the Flag Order but this was how it was when LRH was alive.

    Something else to keep in mind. The divorce rate in the Sea Org is very high. I often had a hard time keeping track of my female co-worker's married names. But once the court emancipates a minor that isn't retracted if they get divorced so if they get divorced the Sea Org ends up with someone under 18 who can be treated like a single legal adult so there is very little incentive for them to facilitate marriages. Singles can be put in crowded dorms, transferred, sent away on missions and made to work longer hours without the distractions and other-purposes of marriage.
  17. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    That's a ridiculous premise with Scientology because the whole point of Scientology is to exploit vulnerabilities in the legal system to create a sub-culture.
    Type4_PTS and J. Swift like this.
  18. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    BigBlue always gets it right on the it was!
    J. Swift and TheOriginalBigBlue like this.
  19. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Point out a sub-culture which can not be accused of that.
  20. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    J. Swift likes this.