Are BT's real?

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Ok. I have had several varieties of results on solo nots:

A) I locate a "BT" - get some responses and the correct needle phenomena. But little com back from them.
B) I locate a "BT" and get next to no com back - I make up answers for them assuming I was unable to hear them - and still get the correct needle phenomena ( the great bulk of my solo nots was like this)
C) A few, I got real communication back from them. These experience made me believe it, solo nots, was for real
D) some seemed to be dub-in.
E) I had some blow and have had a real concrete change in my universe (like a chronic blocked perception turning on)
F) Being able to have a location in my space read on the needle (and I could do this way back in my first sessions as a pc back in the 60's)

I tended to think that, as a result of the correct needle responses and the occasional, but rare, live communication that BTs were real. C) E) and F) tended to prove to me BTs are real.

Then there the things that go on in real life that one could attribute to BTs

A) pictures tuning on in life, most unwanted.
B) songs stuck in my head - it's all about that base-no treble etc.
C)voices in my head
D) dwelling on things that my attention was stuck on - repeating things in my mind I wanted to tell someone over and over.
E) If I am too late going to bed there are loud noises and explosions ( or gun shots) in my head
F) Dreams?

But.

What if there were no BT's to explain this away with?

I have had past life recalls and exteriorizations prior to being involved with Scientology. That makes me an adherent to the spiritual side of man - and that he is more than a body.

It struck me - that if these things were not attributable to BT's, where else could they come from? And what the hell was I doing on the level all those years?

I twigged - it could all be attributed to past beingnesses I had in previous lives. Something happens and the past personality pipes up. "WOW - She's hot hot hot." "Oh god I'm gonna lose my ass on this one" Or presents a picture. Or a feeling. Or a mystery pain. Or a sound - like my cell phone ringing (when it's not)

So, what are you actually doing on solo nots if there is no such thing as BTs? What are you auditing? Attempting to discard past beingnesses, personalities, viewpoints? Getting rid of part of yourself?

What if the great Hubbard misidentified these demons in his head as BT's, other entities, GE's etc when they were just his past personalities manifestating themselves? He's been yammering about them since Book one. I'm certain the things I listed above plagued him and proved to him the rightness of OT 3 and nots and BTs.

What does the great man say is the basis of nots? Misidentification and misownership. So. He misowned his own past personalites, and he misidentified them as beings other than himself. And fucked himself, and the rest of us, up.

Mimsey

 

[Balthasar]

---snipped---
So, what are you actually doing on solo nots if there is no such thing as BTs? What are you auditing? Attempting to discard past beingnesses, personalities, viewpoints? Getting rid of part of yourself?
---snipped---

That's not body thetans. What you would be auditing if you did, that would be "individualized source energy" unlimited in manifestation. Sorry for my convoluted definition but that's the best I could come up with. That's a broad enough definition to encompass everything you might encounter, if you ever did.

Source before its division was one, yet time is an illusion so there is no before or after. Anyway, what Source (or God for the religious) does is to look at itself creating unlimited different perspectives which are then called life. Each of these source created perspectives have in turn the same qualities than Source itself because, after all they are source.

Now what you end up finally, are different kinds of source energy. That can be anything you could possibly imagine. Also, Source energy tends to be connected and smaller parts tend to gravitate towards bigger life units.

It's a very complicated subject and there is more to it. It took me years to understand the BT stuff. I just wanted to throw my two cents in before I head off to do something for my living.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Are BTs real? We must have had dozens of threads about this.

I consider there are little discrete bits of wiggle (energy-consciousness) in one's personal space that one can interact with, sometimes with noticeable results beyond "it's gone" as it departs, dissipates, fades, changes form, hides, or whatever. I really don't see how there can be a whole lot of argument over this as it is pretty plain to anyone who's delved into the area much.

The arguments come in when one starts trying to answer the question of what they are exactly. Giving them some label like "body thetan" is a problem, because then one not only gets into Hubbard's ideas about BTs, but also tries to assign characteristics of "thetans" to them that don't seem to apply, quite apart from the iffy definition of a "thetan" anyway.

Try reformulating the question as, "what are these little bits of wiggle?" and it gets easier, although it's still not at all clear what they are!

Paul

 

[strativarius]

As one who never progressed along the bridge to where interaction with 'Body Thetans' was a factor, I find the whole debate about their existence risible.

Most (apart from the most seriously deluded) agree that Xenu and in fact the entire OT III narrative is completely fallacious, and since BT's are a fundamental part of it, why should these pesky 'space cooties' be any different?

 

[Dulloldfart]

Most (apart from the most seriously deluded) agree that Xenu and in fact the entire OT III narrative is completely fallacious, and since BT's are a fundamental part of it, why should these pesky 'space cooties' be any different?

As I have said many times, the fact that following the procedure(s) of OT3 and NOTs can produce results does not imply that the theory behind the procedure(s) is valid. Although that bit of logic escapes many (including me when I sup'd OT2 and OT3 at Saint Hill and ITO as I used to tell the few students who [quietly!] dared to express doubts about the theory, "Well, see what happens in session and then take another look at it.")

Paul

 

[strativarius]

As I have said many times, the fact that following the procedure(s) of OT3 and NOTs can produce results does not imply that the theory behind the procedure(s) is valid. Although that bit of logic escapes many (including me when I sup'd OT2 and OT3 at Saint Hill and ITO as I used to tell the few students who [quietly!] dared to express doubts about the theory, "Well, see what happens in session and then take another look at it.")

Paul

When you've paid that much money and find yourself having to interact with a bunch on non-existent entities, inventing a few 'results' for yourself is surely the easy part.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

When you've paid that much money and find yourself interacting with a bunch on non-existent entities, inventing a few 'results' for yourself is surely the easy part.

As someone who did just that (so I could make a "clean" escape from "OT3") I agree, it was the easy part and certainly easier than what I would have had to go through had I done what I wanted to do, which was laugh, stamp around a bit, then walk out ... never to return.

What always surprised me though was that I could do what I did and not one person tried to "handle" me. If the tehk was worth anything at all how come nobody picked up that I was having a lend of them just so I could get the hell out as fast as possible and in one piece?

I'm not that good an actress surely? The supervisor (it wasn't you Paul) and CS must have been very "average".

There's no way that I am the only one that did that.


:confused2:

 

[Leland]

Perhaps Mimsey is right...and OT 7's are auditing themselves/former lives and identities ....and therefore, losing themselves...and substituting the Cult for their life/world...?

 

[Leland]

My older sister, a retired Professor of Mathematics.....was never in a Cult in her entire life.

She did become rather deeply involved in Yoga....and became an instructor. Both her and her husband practiced this....including taking retreats a such.

In the last year or so, she has met someone locally, divorced her husband.....

and taken up with a guy that has started a rather new Cult.....This Cult has grown fast....(I posted some things here about it a while back)

She had told me she wanted to take a "new direction" in her spirituality....that her husband didn't want to follow.

He...the guy who started this new cult has written a couple books.

I was very concerned about my older sister.....due to what she had done...divorce and such.

I asked her and queried her on a part of the "proceedure" that they do.

She replied: "I talk to the cells in my body"

She has become a "facilitator" in this new cult.

It is called "Heart Forgiveness."

 

[George Layton]

Imagination is such a wonderful vehicle, it can carry you everywhere.

 

[strativarius]

If I was a cynical person Leland, I'd say, 'stay in touch with your sister'. If Hubbard could make millions from people talking to disembodied spirits stuck to their body, why should she not make a fortune getting people to talk to their cells? In fact I'm regretting that I didn't think of that myself first. LOL.

 

[SpectrumV]

If BT's ( or entities, demons, bits of wiggle, tulpas, whatever you want to call these things ) are real
then are they what people with mental illness are dealing with?
Or just imaginary friends, or enemies?

 

[Leland]

If I was a cynical person Leland, I'd say, 'stay in touch with your sister'. If Hubbard could make millions from people talking to disembodied spirits stuck to their body, why should she not make a fortune getting people to talk to their cells? In fact I'm regretting that I didn't think of that myself first. LOL.

I'm pissed that I wasted 27 years working to pay for scientology....and she just picks up a book, and cuts right to the chase.

 

[Dulloldfart]

If I was a cynical person Leland, I'd say, 'stay in touch with your sister'. If Hubbard could make millions from people talking to disembodied spirits stuck to their body, why should she not make a fortune getting people to talk to their cells? In fact I'm regretting that I didn't think of that myself first. LOL.

http://paulsrobot3.com/woowoo/raw4/body-cell-reach.htm

I do have Reach & Withdraw on a cell as a tiny part of my PaulsRobot RAW4 module. Does that count? It's free, though.

Paul

 

[Leland]

If BT's ( or entities, demons, bits of wiggle, tulpas, whatever you want to call these things ) are real
then are they what people with mental illness are dealing with?
Or just imaginary friends, or enemies?

I think "they" might be a reason for mental illness, problems.

But Scientology for sure IS NOT a solution or handle on that problem.....

Scientology is more a cause of mental illness....in my experience.

 

[Demented LRH]

As one who never progressed along the bridge to where interaction with 'Body Thetans' was a factor, I find the whole debate about their existence risible. Most (apart from the most seriously deluded) agree that Xenu and in fact the entire OT III narrative is completely fallacious, and since BT's are a fundamental part of it, why should these pesky 'space cooties' be any different?

I totally agree –this OT shot is not real. I’m not an OT but I did self-auditing based on Dianetics because in book 1 Hubbard wrote that this could be done. I recalled the episode when I was hiding in the bushes in a park; the voice whose origin I couldn’t determine said, “Stay there, do not move”. “This must be an engram”, I thought. However, a minute later I realized that the episode never happened because in real life I haven’t been in the park that I imagined. This shows that my mind played a trick on me. I was smart enough not to take the episode seriously. But a lot of people with overactive imagination who spoke to the thetans believe think that they were talking to someone other than themselves.

 

[strativarius]

http://paulsrobot3.com/woowoo/raw4/body-cell-reach.htm

I do have Reach & Withdraw on a cell as a tiny part of my PaulsRobot RAW4 module. Does that count? It's free, though.

Paul

I'm sorry Paul, but at this point I have to confess I have never investigated your PaulsRobot modules, but it does sound to me like you were ahead of the curve on that one. The fact that it's free does perhaps say something about your priorities.

 

[WildKat]

Imagination is such a wonderful vehicle, it can carry you everywhere.

Bingo!

The possibilities are endless.

That's why LRH complained he could never get rid of all his BTs. There were too many, an endless supply.

In other words, there's just no end to the shit a person can imagine or "mock up".

Keep mocking up shit that has to be handled (audited) and don't forget to pay the Reg each step along the way!

Don't forget to imagine a few wins here and there too, or pay the price in ethics or having your little bubble world collapse all around you.

Like someone here has said "It's a hellavahoax!"

 

[strativarius]

Having only progressed along the 'bridge' as far as OT I and not having encountered any BT's at first hand, I find it almost incomprehensible that otherwise intelligent individuals should persist for so long (as after OT III Hubbard seemed to run out of almost anything new as far as subjects for auditing) and invest so much money engaging in the futile activity of ridding oneself of imaginary 'beings' attached to one's body.

It is an extreme activity on several levels and worth serious study I should imagine if anyone wanted to pursue the subject of cults, belief systems and self-delusion.

 

[Dulloldfart]

If BT's ( or entities, demons, bits of wiggle, tulpas, whatever you want to call these things ) are real
then are they what people with mental illness are dealing with?
Or just imaginary friends, or enemies?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

I would say that there are all manner of ethereal "things" that are not catalogued in hard materialistic science, many of which have been described by various authors who declare that they have perceived them. Many of these are probably imaginary, delusory, hallucinatory, or otherwise non-existent, but I believe certainly not all. If someone wishes to categorically state that such wispy things cannot possibly exist, well, they are entitled to that limiting viewpoint.

As for what "people with mental illness" are dealing with, I would guess that there are individual factors spread across a wide spectrum of possibilities, not forgetting the question of determining exactly what "health" and "illness" are in this context.

Paul