esp and the BT

uniquemand

Unbeliever
So is the idea of 'You' :coolwink:

Yes! I didn't mean to infer otherwise. My concept of you is also imaginal, as is your concept of me. The idea that they can interchange thoughts between them would suggest that there is a bridge between our two imaginations, and that has yet to be demonstrated in any meaningful way.
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
That may well be the PR version of the overall point of word clearing. The effects of the process in Scientology, as you mention, is to manufacture agreement with the concepts. I imagine its the same in the FreeZone in that further "progress" is stymied until there is agreement with the concepts; afterall, a person can't possibly have Engrams removed until such time as they agree that Engrams exist.

In wog world, the effect of Method 3 Word Clearing is to stunt understanding of concepts by atomising the overall message and hampering the ability to discern meaning via context. Also, I can tell you that as someone who only became "functionally literate" in my late 20s, Method 7 Word Clearing would have slowed my learning considerably. Being constantly interrupted when stumbling or "frowning" as I "sounded-out" the tricky words, would have derailed my concomitant train-of-thought and I would've (and still now) quickly lost interest in the subject.

Another point of word clearing - see Method 3 and Method 9 Word Clearing - is to correct a student displaying a lack of enthusiasm, yawning, doodling, or day-dreaming. According to L Ron Hubbard, such behaviour indicates a misunderstood word:



So much for "no absolutes" and any possibility that the student might just be tired and fed-up with reading rubbish.

And what's with the peculiar order of: Method 3, Method 9, and Method 7? I see from HCOB1 July 1971R, (revised 11 January 1989), “The Different Types of Word Clearing“ Methods 1, 2, 4, and 5 involve the use of the e-meter . . . <sigh> bloody typical, yet another aspect of Scientology where it never is as it first appears.

DoF - you out there? Is Word Clearing really about furthering an understanding of the concepts being read?

I think word clearing, at least as I experienced it, was a subtle way to bring you to agreement with the supervisor's idea of what is correct. It was used to change my mind about things I disagreed on, or to change my mind on things I interpreted "differently" than I should in the supervisor's opinion.

I don't know the history behind the number/order, it's odd. But you're absolutely right, it's just one more aspect with layers.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
That is the way that a lot of scientologists use it. Even though it IS a scientology method, I think it CAN be used for understanding, because I've done it. I don't trust it in the hands of scientologists, but I do trust it in the hands of people who are trained to word-clear without any other methods or beliefs entered in. It's the fact that Scientologists are using it in order to TRAIN you, which is very different from understanding and self-determined education, that makes it dangerous. Training is similar to brainwashing. If you accept it, knowing that is what you are doing, then it is education. If it happens while you think something else is happening, then it's a subtle, dangerous way of inserting memes.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
I think word clearing, at least as I experienced it, was a subtle way to bring you to agreement with the supervisor's idea of what is correct. It was used to change my mind about things I disagreed on, or to change my mind on things I interpreted "differently" than I should in the supervisor's opinion.

I don't know the history behind the number/order, it's odd. But you're absolutely right, it's just one more aspect with layers.
Yes. I sometimes think of Word Clearing as used in the CofS as being kinda like massaging jigsaw-puzzle pieces until they slot into place, whether they fit or not. When you eventually step away from the table and actually look, you see that the picture you had in your mind bears no resemblance to the incoherent, fragmented picture that is the scientology jigsaw.
 

Johnd

Patron with Honors
It's KSW baby - can't alter the tech. Hubbard wrote a word clearing series, and method 3 comes from the 3rd bulletin in the series, method 7 from the 7th etc. This makes no sense whatsoever when they use the same names in the study books that Applied Scholastics gives out to schools.

A quote form Dave Touretzky's paper which is a good read for those trying to understand how study tech manipulates critical thought etc.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/StudyTech/

Mimsey

Great quote. And no-one is saying that using dictionaries is a bad idea. It's a great idea. Perverting the idea into an complicated and convoluted obsession/ritual though is very destructive. All the complicated grinding away at words DOES reinforce obedience and the hyperbole connected with 'word clearing tech' I think belittles the real accomplishments and service of those who did the dictionary research work.

john
 

Johnd

Patron with Honors
Yes. I sometimes think of Word Clearing as used in the CofS as being kinda like massaging jigsaw-puzzle pieces until they slot into place, whether they fit or not. When you eventually step away from the table and actually look, you see that the picture you had in your mind bears no resemblance to the incoherent, fragmented picture that is the scientology jigsaw.

Yeah. It's a great idea perverted into a a 'hubbard breakthrough' that's actually a perversion of the original idea to the extent that it becomes harmful--debilitating.

Seems to be a case of hubbard co-opting (stealing) the quite brilliant and useful idea of having really comprehensive dictionaries so that smart people can use them to better understand and use language. Then perverting the idea into a convoluted drudgery--9 methods that you have to 'follow' in order to achieve understanding. Obedient understanding. No-contribution-needed from-you understanding. No-thought-deviation-allowed understanding. Just understand the words and do the demos and the drills. After all' as ron points out in KSW, you're not source, you flunky. Who cares about your ideas and interpretations?

Of course looking up words is great. This is a breakthrough, but it predates hubbard. Hubbard perverted the idea.

Sorry if I rant.

john
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Great quote. And no-one is saying that using dictionaries is a bad idea. It's a great idea. Perverting the idea into an complicated and convoluted obsession/ritual though is very destructive. All the complicated grinding away at words DOES reinforce obedience and the hyperbole connected with 'word clearing tech' I think belittles the real accomplishments and service of those who did the dictionary research work.

john

:thumbsup: Nicely stated, John.

I was trained and worked as a Hubbard Professional Word Clearer as one of my first posts in the Sea Org. ANY time a student paused, did not go forward, etc., was spending time contemplating an idea, had a disagreement, etc., they were sent to me. EVERY word that read on the emeter was cleared. Scientology words, of course, ONLY with Scn tech and admin dictionaries.

This interrupted the entire thought process of disagreement, comparing and relating material to one's life. It was, in actuality, a key process of brainwashing. By interrupting the thought processes where one might think for one's self about what was being read and analyze it, by focusing on the words and not the truth or rationality of what was being said, even the most independent thinkers could be, and were, brainwashed.

On an unrelated post, I mentioned that it is this very process of pausing and comparing things in our life that get our attention which brings about personal awareness. Quite often, this is what "reads" on the emeter. But no, we stayed away from that in Scn and would instead ask for "E/S Misunderstood word". How awful.

So many of those who practice Scn outside of COS still have this minute focus on the words, rather than a broader perspective they might have obtained otherwise. Can't see the forest for the trees, would rather be part of the forest than a tree in the forest.

“Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.” Christopher Morley (1890 - 1957)
 

Johnd

Patron with Honors
I suppose, word clearing is used for better understanding of the concepts, although in many cases unknown words could be easily understood from the context.

In Scientology word clearing does no good because Hubbard was using self-contradictory concepts or the concepts that contradict one another.

No wonder why so many Scientologists tried to clear the Hubbard words but failed to do so.

The Hubbard word that dogged me most was "as-isness", if I rember it correctly. I tried to clear the damn word, which was a pain in the ass, but could not. Finally I changed it to "existence" which was a half-victory for me, but I knew that it was just an approximation of the original monster word.

Yeah, using dictionaries to decode scientology gibberish is like turning up the volume to decode static.

As-isness is something I really felt I understood in my cult days. Now that you mention it I realize I was deluded. Think it was around the concept of 'erasure.' You view something exactly as it is and it erases. This was applied to things mental and to real things. Because an asisness had no persistence in time--uh, well it was tough to pin down, always being spitefully inclined to vanish. Without so much as a 'poof.' Something like that. ???????I could actually go on, but it would just get stupider.

A dictionary is no help with this kind of crap.

john
 
Oh, the concept of As-isness is easy to understand. Whether it works that way is something else. (duplicating something and it disapears) I have experienced stuff going away in auditing, but now I am uncertain if it was mass or BT's blowing or the charge leaving the picture and it falling back on the track where it came from or the picture as-ising or what - who knows what disappeared? But something sure happened.

Mimsey
 

Johnd

Patron with Honors
:thumbsup: Nicely stated, John.

I was trained and worked as a Hubbard Professional Word Clearer as one of my first posts in the Sea Org. ANY time a student paused, did not go forward, etc., was spending time contemplating an idea, had a disagreement, etc., they were sent to me. EVERY word that read on the emeter was cleared. Scientology words, of course, ONLY with Scn tech and admin dictionaries.

This interrupted the entire thought process of disagreement, comparing and relating material to one's life. It was, in actuality, a key process of brainwashing. By interrupting the thought processes where one might think for one's self about what was being read and analyze it, by focusing on the words and not the truth or rationality of what was being said, even the most independent thinkers could be, and were, brainwashed.

On an unrelated post, I mentioned that it is this very process of pausing and comparing things in our life that get our attention which brings about personal awareness. Quite often, this is what "reads" on the emeter. But no, we stayed away from that in Scn and would instead ask for "E/S Misunderstood word". How awful.

So many of those who practice Scn outside of COS still have this minute focus on the words, rather than a broader perspective they might have obtained otherwise. Can't see the forest for the trees, would rather be part of the forest than a tree in the forest.

“Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.” Christopher Morley (1890 - 1957)

Great post gottabrain and I like your Morley quote.

I too did LOTS of 'word clearing' on people--method 1, method 3, m 4, m7, m9, etc, etc. Also had these done on me. I liked helping people to find and define words they didn't know. The idea that I was helping someone improve their vocabulary gave me satisfaction. I also had the idea that I might be doing something profound for the person's 'case' as hubbard implied and said in a number of places.

Yeah, 'study' in scientology involved interruption after interruption. Any thinking a student wanted to do had to be done in private. On course sitting there thinking would have been an indication of misunderstood words.

When somebody asked Isaac Newton how he had arrived at so many discoveries in physics he answered that he had done it by thinking about certain things. He would sit there thinking. (Don't have the quote handy but that's the jist.) In scn he would have been interrupted constantly.

Did Hubbard fear thinking and so invent methods of derailing thought? Seems so to me.

Methods three and 4 are methods of thought interruption. Method 1 did not clear up subjects. Methods 7 and 9 just stifled thought. In general I'd say that the 'word clearing methods' are really methods of stifling thought and inducing obedience and dependency. And of claiming credit for an old practice.

Recognizing words you need to look up and using a dictionary is not scientology or a scientology 'method.' It's just something smart people have done for centuries. It works.

john
 

Operating DB

Truman Show Dropout
This is a nice thread. Thanks to all for the contributions and helping "as-is" crap that I acquired while I was in the cult.

While reading this thread the thought occurred to me that I feel I may have exceeded the time I spent studying scn with "unstudying" it. That is, reading anti scn books, reading countless threads on this site as well as others, videos etc.

It's certainly is more entertaining and the information is useful and full of truth compared to the endless false scn crap I studied while in the cult.
 
Oh, the concept of As-isness is easy to understand. Whether it works that way is something else. (duplicating something and it disapears) I have experienced stuff going away in auditing, but now I am uncertain if it was mass or BT's blowing or the charge leaving the picture and it falling back on the track where it came from or the picture as-ising or what - who knows what disappeared? But something sure happened.

Mimsey

i see it as "mechanically" a simple phenomenon of mental consideration & significance.

The sense that 'something' is 'there' (i.e. an 'is-ness' is present) indicates a bit of 'mass' or some mental 'significance' which is hanging around in the mind in an unresolved or incompletely acknowledged state. When that 'something' is 'completely duplicated' (i.e. 'as-ised' or 'grokked' for those conversant in heinleinese :coolwink:) then that present sense of continuing mental 'significance' is lost and it's as if that mental sensation vanishes from the mind. Poof!


Mark A. Baker
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
Great post gottabrain and I like your Morley quote.

I too did LOTS of 'word clearing' on people--method 1, method 3, m 4, m7, m9, etc, etc. Also had these done on me. I liked helping people to find and define words they didn't know. The idea that I was helping someone improve their vocabulary gave me satisfaction. I also had the idea that I might be doing something profound for the person's 'case' as hubbard implied and said in a number of places.

Yeah, 'study' in scientology involved interruption after interruption. Any thinking a student wanted to do had to be done in private. On course sitting there thinking would have been an indication of misunderstood words.

When somebody asked Isaac Newton how he had arrived at so many discoveries in physics he answered that he had done it by thinking about certain things. He would sit there thinking. (Don't have the quote handy but that's the jist.) In scn he would have been interrupted constantly.

Did Hubbard fear thinking and so invent methods of derailing thought? Seems so to me.

Methods three and 4 are methods of thought interruption. Method 1 did not clear up subjects. Methods 7 and 9 just stifled thought. In general I'd say that the 'word clearing methods' are really methods of stifling thought and inducing obedience and dependency. And of claiming credit for an old practice.

Recognizing words you need to look up and using a dictionary is not scientology or a scientology 'method.' It's just something smart people have done for centuries. It works.

john

Thanks, Johnd, glad you enjoyed the quote, too.

Great post here. I love all your posts, actually. I'm sorry I haven't gotten around to responding properly to your initial story, but there is a lot there and I promise, I will.

I love your breakdown of the effects Hubbard-style wordclearing had on interrupting thought. I'm attaching a link here to the various methods so lurkers here can follow what we're talking about:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?5012-Methods-of-Word-Clearing

John, I also enjoyed what i thought was helping people increase their education at the time. In retrospect, I didn't help that much and the interruption of free thought and confidently assuring them that their disagreements, etc were ONLY due to misunderstood words probably caused those students a great deal of difficulty in later life. Worse, it sealed their thought patterns to Hubbard's, creating a parasitic relationship, sucking the life and creativity out of them - a relationship that was never natural in the first place.

Was Hubbard afraid of free thought? Sure. But I don't think fear was a primary motive. Hubbard was a hypnotist, he knew it required this interruption and suppresison of individual thought and action to keep us all in the living in the dazed elation and nightmare of delusion and contradiction that is Scientology.

Since a wordclearer must keep "stats" on words cleared, it kept the focus on words, not on thought. Method 2 was the most insidious. With method 2, ALL disagreement, free thought or upset about what Hubbard wrote was eliminated - through the use of an emeter.

Method 1 - Wasn't too bad but not at all what it claimed to be. Since it was auditing hours (rather than wordclearing hours and stats of "words cleared") some of us camped out on it and insisted that the co-auditor bring reference books and spent time reading these. But we missed out on so much, never being given the time to actually study these materials by ourselves - co-auditor right there watching, waiting for the MUs. lol How I wished when we cleared up auto terms, that I could have, instead, walked out to a car and looked at each part and taken a class on mechanics to see exactly how it all worked. I still only have a small, basic knowledge of parts that is not enough to do more than change oil and add fluids.

Huh! Hadn't thought of that in a while. Maybe I'll sign onto an auto class at the local college next semester. I'd like that. :yes:

Thanks very much for the Newton story. Loved it. :thumbsup:
 

Johnd

Patron with Honors
Oh, the concept of As-isness is easy to understand. Whether it works that way is something else. (duplicating something and it disapears) I have experienced stuff going away in auditing, but now I am uncertain if it was mass or BT's blowing or the charge leaving the picture and it falling back on the track where it came from or the picture as-ising or what - who knows what disappeared? But something sure happened.

Mimsey

Easy for you geniuses! Slippery for me. As-isness fits into the scheme that goes as-isness, is-ness, alter-isness, not-isness. As-isness is the underlying truth, the original 'postulate' (ugh). Unfortunately it has no persistence in time. The as-isness has to be lied about so that it can persist unseen behind the lie, and the lie, not the as-isness persists. Is-ness is the lie, but it's real,t not the truth. Truth immediately vanishes when viewed. Alter-is-ness is an alteration of a lousy is-ness and at least a bit degraded. Not-is-ness is thinking something isn't when it 'is,' which it really isn't as it's a lie, in other words, real but subject to instant disappearance when its concealed as-isness is glimpsed. Except that you don't have much time to glimpse that truth/as-isness as it immediately vanishes.

Who's on first?

Yesterday I as-ised where I left my coffee. It reappeared a while later though.

Is there something I'm not appreciating, or is this just drug addled mind f%^#?

I also experienced what felt like the disappearance of pressure or a sort of weight in auditing. I don't know why. I do know that that's what I was trying to experience. I think that had a lot to do with it. And I'm not belittling the experience. I just had no lasting gain from it.

john
 

LongTimeGone

Silver Meritorious Patron
Easy for you geniuses! Slippery for me. As-isness fits into the scheme that goes as-isness, is-ness, alter-isness, not-isness. As-isness is the underlying truth, the original 'postulate' (ugh). Unfortunately it has no persistence in time. The as-isness has to be lied about so that it can persist unseen behind the lie, and the lie, not the as-isness persists. Is-ness is the lie, but it's real,t not the truth. Truth immediately vanishes when viewed. Alter-is-ness is an alteration of a lousy is-ness and at least a bit degraded. Not-is-ness is thinking something isn't when it 'is,' which it really isn't as it's a lie, in other words, real but subject to instant disappearance when its concealed as-isness is glimpsed. Except that you don't have much time to glimpse that truth/as-isness as it immediately vanishes.

Who's on first?

Yesterday I as-ised where I left my coffee. It reappeared a while later though.

Is there something I'm not appreciating, or is this just drug addled mind f%^#?

I also experienced what felt like the disappearance of pressure or a sort of weight in auditing. I don't know why. I do know that that's what I was trying to experience. I think that had a lot to do with it. And I'm not belittling the experience. I just had no lasting gain from it.

john

Might be showing my ignorance or failing memory, but I always though As-is was a verb; I have never heard of a state of as-isness.

LTG
 
As isness is a state, much like the Egyptian state of Da Nile. Kidding aside, Hub goes into that - it is the instance of creation and it does not last unless altered. It is also the state of mind of those over 60. I think a thought, and then Poof. It is gone. Maybe it will come back maybe not.

Once I as-ised some document. I put it on my desk. then, perhaps 15 min later - it was gone. I looked at every scrap of paper on my desk 3-4 times. Mind you, I never left my chair.

6 weeks later it turned up - I pulled a file from my filing cabinet and there it was. It drove me bat shit crazy for an hour or more when it first happened.

That happens to me a bunch. Maybe I have Candida? Again! I know I had a point why I was saying all this but I must have as is'ed...

Mimsey
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
As isness is a state, much like the Egyptian state of Da Nile. Kidding aside, Hub goes into that - it is the instance of creation and it does not last unless altered. It is also the state of mind of those over 60. I think a thought, and then Poof. It is gone. Maybe it will come back maybe not.

Once I as-ised some document. I put it on my desk. then, perhaps 15 min later - it was gone. I looked at every scrap of paper on my desk 3-4 times. Mind you, I never left my chair.

6 weeks later it turned up - I pulled a file from my filing cabinet and there it was. It drove me bat shit crazy for an hour or more when it first happened.

That happens to me a bunch. Maybe I have Candida? Again! I know I had a point why I was saying all this but I must have as is'ed...

Mimsey

Unfortunately, Mimsey, many of us have suffered memory loss or problems after Scientology - much of it long before age 50. It was the mind control, and treating fantasies as if they were real while shutting out the real world.
 
Unfortunately, Mimsey, many of us have suffered memory loss or problems after Scientology - much of it long before age 50. It was the mind control, and treating fantasies as if they were real while shutting out the real world.

Hard to say. Could also reflect drugs, alcohol, or other conditions present among former scientologists. Many first involved themselves with the cult precisely because they knew they had such issues.


Mark A. Baker
 
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