David Miscavige's abuses and violence

[Gadfly]

Dear HH,

Thank you for your Goodwill and kind spirit.
I understand that Message boards have their own culture and expect debate and
response and so on.

Therefore it was inappropriate of me to have selected a Message Board forum when I had no desire to "play by the rules" or what was expected of me. The fault was mine, and I am responsible. I think I did *try* ~~ My early posts coming out, I did try harder than most Indies to mingle some.

But when all is said and done, I had to follow my purpose which is to whistle blow on abuses, (to bring an end to them) not to sword fence which can naturally occur in a free-for-all forum.

I am busy as a bee in the Art world ...this is the busiest season of all.

I will emerge on the Internet in 2012 in a way more effective way.

I will always be grateful for the new and *special* friendships made by so many who showed me such kindness back channels (even though they did agree with my beliefs) and especially Emma.

Have a great time over the holidays.

love
Karen

Karen, I would like to point out that I also rarely "debate", much less have an actual "conversation". Now, yes, I do sometimes, but for the most part what I do is post what I think about something. I might do so in repsonse to a post, I might start a thread, or I might go off on some tangent. I tend to use existing posts and threads as springboards to express my own observations about Hubbard or Scientology.

I don't think these boards function much as "discussion", no matter what they might be called. Posters say what they think, and other posters respond with what they think. Sometimes that "appears" to be a discussion.

"Debate" almost NEVER occurs.

So, really, as I see it, you fit in JUST FINE.

I don't expect others to answer anything, and really, for me, I come here to get "inspired" by what I see in other posts. Generally, I use existing posts to prod my memories, or stream of associations, so as to nudge me into thinking along some avenue.

People "use" ESMB for many different reasons. Your reason is your reason, and I have NEVER seen any problem with it. This place will be all the poorer without you.

If you ever decide to smile again in our direction with your EXCELLENT write-ups, I will appreciate it.

I suppose I can be hard on people who still adhere to a bit too much of Hubbard, but we were each THERE at some point. I do understand.

 

[Gadfly]

It's all part and parcel of the same thing and I can't understand why some people can't see that or have a problem with it. The idea isn't to prosecute Hubbard, but unless it is known where the abusive doctrines originated and WHY they are carried out today, it's a very small part of the picture.

I second the motion!

This is simple. Hubbard wrote EXACT directions on how EVERY tiny aspect of his organization was to be run. These exact policies, directives, orders and advices are exactly followed by the Church of Scientology, and THUS the crimes, nastiness, deceit and manipulation occur.

That doesn't mean that some people don't really enjoy and feel benefit from the auditing. I sure did. But, any honest person with a good ability to differentiate should be able to confront that the abuses stem directly from the pattern delineated by Hubbard in his exact policies, directives, orders and advices.

There is the auditing "tech". And, there is the "organizational tech". They are NOT the same. They are not equal. They concern themselves with VERY different things, auditing with the first dynamic and the latter with the third dynamic. The auditing tech can be used to help and assist a human being. Hubbard's third dynamic tech, as is clearly stated repeatedly in his writings, is there, just as is Scientoopgy ethics and justice, to "expand Scientology". Those two purposes, of auditing and of the Church organization, are often at odds, and NOT because of Miscavige, but because Hubbard set it up that way.

It is fairly easy for most ex-Scios to see that things are VERY wrong with the Scientology organization. It can be a bit harder for some of these ex-Scios to notice that these very wrong things are due to dedicated staff following exactly clear LRH instructions. Some seem to feel that they need to maintain the idea that Hubbard is "perfect" or "beyond error". He was a human being (or a tulpa per some). And, as a human being he was NOT consistent, and while he may have been admirable to some in SOME regards, it is okay to vuew him less than admirably in other regards. Of course, THAT is contrary to severe Scientology indoctrination. What any person is becoming free of here is Scientology indoctrination.

And, in a court of law, connecting the criminal and unsavory behaviors to EXACT WRITTEN ORDERS sure makes for an easier "case".

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

OMG! Carmelo! You are mean...LOL!...

Perhaps we should start a thread just for the topic of Pierre's abuses and violence and leave this one for his compadre David Miscavige

Pierre, in drag, pictured with DM:

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Did I understand correctly that Karen, only a year and a half ago, was working at OSA on Hollywood Blvd.?

(if that is correct)

She has certainly moved rapidly, in rebalancing her priorities.

 

[TheSneakster]

Did I understand correctly that Karen, only a year and a half ago, was working at OSA on Hollywood Blvd.?

(if that is correct)

I don't recall Karen De La Carriere ever making such a statement.

Citation, please ?

According to her public announcement of her departure from Co$ dated June 30, 2010, she hasn't worked at OSA International since 1987 and left the Sea Org entirely in 1990.

 

[cakemaker]

Nice going.....

With "friends" like these...

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

I don't recall Karen De La Carriere ever making such a statement.

Citation, please ?

According to her public announcement of her departure from Co$ dated June 30, 2010, she hasn't worked at OSA International since 1987 and left the Sea Org entirely in 1990.

on the telephone with her ( I had a lot of noise in the background. I didn't get into a QnA)

 

[TheSneakster]

Did I understand correctly that Karen, only a year and a half ago, was working at OSA on Hollywood Blvd.?

(if that is correct)

I don't recall Karen De La Carriere ever making such a statement.

Citation, please ?

According to her public announcement of her departure from Co$ dated June 30, 2010, she hasn't worked at OSA International since 1987 and left the Sea Org entirely in 1990.

on the telephone with her ( I had a lot of noise in the background. I didn't get into a QnA)

So you are asking the readership whether you correctly understood information which you claim came from a private phone conversation to which the readership could not possibly have access. Right.

Well, I've messaged Karen to drop by and weigh-in on the matter and confirm whether she ever had any such phone conversation with you. Of course, I have no idea how soon she might respond.

 

[Sindy]

So you are asking the readership whether you correctly understood information which you claim came from a private phone conversation to which the readership could not possibly have access. Right.

Well, I've messaged Karen to drop by and weigh-in on the matter and confirm whether she ever had any such phone conversation with you. Of course, I have no idea how soon she might respond.

Please show your badge when addressing the court. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

It's all part and parcel of the same thing and I can't understand why some people can't see that or have a problem with it. The idea isn't to prosecute Hubbard, but unless it is known where the abusive doctrines originated and WHY they are carried out today, it's a very small part of the picture.

Yes, but many Indies and FZers already know that and even stipulate to that in posts. Yet, again and again, they're told Google is their friend, Ron is their homeboy, etc, that they love KSW and things like that- by other folks.

Some of the comments made to non CofS Scn'ists bear little or no resemblance to what's actually going on. Not that I'm supposed to ever explain anything on ESMB. I'm given to understand that this breaks an unwritten rule of sorts.

 

[Veda]

I've no doubt that Lovinglife625 wrote form the heart, and I respect him, and his feelings, and it may even be that Karen perceives herself to have been under "constant attack" on this thread, or on ESMB, since she first started posting over a year ago, but I don't see how agreeing with, or reinforcing, that perception assists her in her recovery from the dark side of Scientology. Anyone can examine the content of this thread, and of ESMB, and decide if Karen was or was not under "constant attack." IMO, that's an unfortunate choice of words. Then again, I also disagree with her characterization of myself as being part of an "orchestrated hate campaign," and, as I wrote on the post addressing that allegation, I wish her well.

 

[Sindy]

The very truth hath a color from the disposition of the utterer.

GEORGE ELIOT, Felix Holt

Not everything that's true needs to be said.

CASSANDRA CLARE, City of Bones

The heart is an artist that paints over what profoundly disturbs us, leaving on the canvas a less dark, less sharp version of the truth.

DEAN KOONTZ, Forever Odd

Truth is a torch, but a huge one, and so it is only with blinking eyes what we all of us try to get past it, in actual terror of being burnt.

JOHANN WOLFGANG VON GOETHE, The Maxims and Reflections of Goethe

Karen,

I feel very strongly about my own truth as does every one of us. It's a very hot topic -- scorching, like a hot potato, no...more like a red hot smoldering piece of iron, held by one, to brand another. It's too hot to touch sometimes and especially too hot to adequately deal with through words, between souls and hearts unseen, across the cold and sometimes unforgiving medium of a message board -- a message board filled with those who all have that one unwieldy thing in common -- the desire for truth.

Please forgive and try to understand. In the end, most none of what is said here is truly ever personal. How could it be when most do not know of whom they speak? It's more about the truth and lies. It's hot. Too flaming hot to handle. The pain from being burned by either one -- a truth or a once-believed untruth -- is enough to drive us all quite mad, searching for that perfect middle ground where every thing makes sense enough to carry on.

I'm sorry that you felt the need to go. Hell, I feel that way almost every week and have many times announced the fact though never really gave the reason why and now I know, upon reflection, that the truth was just too hot to handle.

Namaste and may each and every one us find the inner peace that we desire.

Love, Synthia

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

So you are asking the readership whether you correctly understood information which you claim came from a private phone conversation to which the readership could not possibly have access. Right.

Well, I've messaged Karen to drop by and weigh-in on the matter and confirm whether she ever had any such phone conversation with you. Of course, I have no idea how soon she might respond.

[video=youtube;C_Kh7nLplWo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Kh7nLplWo[/video]

Sneakster, your answer was plenty straight forward. I obviously miss heard.

 

[Sindy]

I've no doubt that Lovinglife625 wrote form the heart, and I respect him, and his feelings, and it may even be that Karen perceives herself to have been under "constant attack" on this thread, or on ESMB, since she first started posting over a year ago, but I don't see how agreeing with, or reinforcing, that perception assists her in her recovery from the dark side of Scientology. Anyone can examine the content of this thread, and of ESMB, and decide if Karen was or was not under "constant attack." IMO, that's an unfortunate choice of words. Then again, I also disagree with her characterization of myself as being part of an "orchestrated hate campaign," and, as I wrote on the post addressing that allegation, I wish her well.

I also agree with the above 100% I will even go so far as to say that I have pm'd Veda two times since I have been on this board (a little over a year) and one time he said nothing back to me and the second time he reluctantly gave me information that I was seeking but nicely admonished me that he preferred all communication to be out in the open on the board.

Veda is not, in my experience, a "back channel" kinda guy. I also do not see him as attacking. I can, however, see how another might see it that way but only because the area is "highly charged", if you will. It is very clear to me that attacking Karen was never Veda's intention in the slightest.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Please show your badge when addressing the court. Thank you for your cooperation.

No, but he really, really, really is a policeman, a secret agent and a supreme court judge!! I am sure he has the "citations" and "case" authorities to prove it.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I also agree with the above 100% I will even go so far as to say that I have pm'd Veda two times since I have been on this board (a little over a year) and one time he said nothing back to me and the second time he reluctantly gave me information that I was seeking but nicely admonished me that he preferred all communication to be out in the open on the board.

Veda is not, in my experience, a "back channel" kinda guy. I also do not see him as attacking. I can, however, see how another might see it that way but only because the area is "highly charged", if you will. It is very clear to me that attacking Karen was never Veda's intention in the slightest.

When I was first in Scientology I was constantly being attacked also. I eventually did a PTS handling and found the source of suppression. Thereafter, I disconnected from my item (truth) and immediately stopped rollercoastering.

 

[Student of Trinity]

Perhaps it's part of the dark side of the 'true for you' pitch of Scientology, that Scientology tends to become part of a person's identity. It's supposed to be all about one's own experience. So if a Scientologist hears Scientology attacked, do they feel that they themselves are also being attacked, personally?

Not every group or belief system is like this.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

Perhaps it's part of the dark side of the 'true for you' pitch of Scientology, that Scientology tends to become part of a person's identity. It's supposed to be all about one's own experience. So if a Scientologist hears Scientology attacked, do they feel that they themselves are also being attacked, personally?

Not every group or belief system is like this.

This was just posted in the theta universe. . .

Originally Posted by L. Ron Hubbard
Dear Student of Trinity,

What you are saying about Scientology is just wrong.

Why are you attacking me personally?

ML,

Ron

 

[Axiom142]

Perhaps it's part of the dark side of the 'true for you' pitch of Scientology, that Scientology tends to become part of a person's identity. It's supposed to be all about one's own experience. So if a Scientologist hears Scientology attacked, do they feel that they themselves are also being attacked, personally?

Not every group or belief system is like this.

Spot on Trinity – Scientology, and by extension, all things Scientological become part of one’s identity. So, anyone disagreeing with one’s views on the subject is often seen as ‘attacking’. This view, is I believe, deliberately fostered by those running the cult as a way of creating a ‘them and us’ or ‘siege’ mentality thus causing those in the cult to withdraw from the rest of the world and be pulled further into the insanity.

However, I don’t think that this attitude is unique to Scientology. I think that it is a basic human trait – a sort of ‘tribal mentality. Sports fans do it with their own team, residents of towns / counties / states / nations do it and even a few scientists do it (try telling a cranky old professor that the paper he wrote in the latest journal is a load of codswallop and he should stick to writing pop-science articles for the tabloids ).

But, I think it is much more pronounced for Scientologists because they have invested so much of themselves (financially and emotionally), they have to believe that they are right and so vehemently respond to any criticism. I’ve seen this myself so many times and it’s very sad to see, because you know that the person doing this must be very unhappy.

Axiom142

 

[Panda Termint]

Perhaps it's part of the dark side of the 'true for you' pitch of Scientology, that Scientology tends to become part of a person's identity. It's supposed to be all about one's own experience. So if a Scientologist hears Scientology attacked, do they feel that they themselves are also being attacked, personally?

Not every group or belief system is like this.

Ex-scientologists may sometimes become annoyed/dismayed by those who insist upon constantly seeking to enforce their (held-to-be-true) beliefs and constant interrogation about the Ex-scientologist's own beliefs, especially when it becomes a group effort. I'm guessing it reminds them too much of life in the church of scientology.

This is why we can't have nice things.