TRs and The Ganzfeld Effect

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

Was this your own belief or a suggestion to add to the list of stupid justifications that True Believers use to discount revelations of Hubbard's very abusive behavior?

I am saying that psychopathic individuals, or screwed up individuals will come up with all sorts of what appear to be intelligent excuses and use those excuses to condone destructive behaviour. Criminals trying to protect criminals or mentally disturbed individuals showing no empathy are certainly no compassion justifying egregious behaviours.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Or you can believe what a old timer / indi told me about Hubbard when I suggested he lied frequently - "Oh that type of personality is prone to exaggeration."

Birdy or Clay Pidgeon - What in your mind makes him this: "He was a genius and the beneficial aspects of his work are of surpassing value" Have you gone up the bridge to verify that in your own mind? I have done the BC and audited solo on OT 7 and the only part of your statement I find true is that he was a genius at manipulating gullible people into believing his tech was valid.

Mimsey

Hi Mims!

I'm a CLIV HGDS on the training side and an RC Straighrazor Release on the PC side

And perhaps better off for not going into "confidential materials


..
Hubbard was quite careful to avoid outwardly claiming that the TR drills would result in "exteriorization". I think this was part of the cleverly constructed "boil the frog slowly" approach. Just create the conditions for a dissociative state and let it be commonly understood to be a proof positive that he has a workable scientific approach to Buddhism like enlightenment. It was a brilliant strategy and Scientology might have had legs if he kept things more conservative but he had to get further and further out there all the way to druggy BTs and then condemn conservatism itself as a source of PTSness in an effort to create a strawman SP in defense of his being so far out there.

There have been other non-Scientology programs that tried to explore this dissociate state "by any other name" and I expect it was known to Crowley. Hell, even the Whirling Dervishes were onto it.

TR's were for auditor training and as any well-trained auditor will tell you utterly essential to the form.

It was in fact the HAS course which produced the big change in my OCA graph and I was very pleased with the case gain I got from them.

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

TR's were for auditor training and as any well-trained auditor will tell you utterly essential to the form.

It was in fact the HAS course which produced the big change in my OCA graph and I was very pleased with the case gain I got from them.

In application TRs were NOT just for auditor training. There is a reason a Scientology senior will tell a junior to get their TRs in when pushing for compliance over something for which that person may have something like a moral equivocation or other disagreement. We see TRs in full display when OSAbots confront perceived enemies at the end of a camcorder. TRs are the compartmentalization of critical thinking in Scientology cultural application. Therefore, auditors are expected to be rote and mechanical in their actions instead of improvising and using intuition. This carries over into the routine behavior in an individual's day-to-day life.

I would also challenge the credibility of the OCA as a gauge of improvement, because it is not changed the results will be influenced by the subject's previous knowledge of the test and with increased exposure to Scientology the individual's answers become colored by their understanding of how they are interpreted within the Scientology culture. In other words, the subject is inclined to become more PC with each test. They think that they can compensate for test results that are too cleverly answered by a person's instinctive ability to blend in with societal norms but at the same time they are teaching Scientologists how to do this within Scientological norms.

The OCA is probably more accurate as a gauge of indoctrination into Scientology.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

In application TRs were NOT just for auditor training. There is a reason a Scientology senior will tell a junior to get their TRs in when pushing for compliance over something for which that person may have something like a moral iquivocation or other disagreement. We see TRs in full display when OSAbots confront perceived enemies at the end of a camcorder. TRs are the compartmentalization of critical thinking in Scientology cultural application. Therefore, auditors are expected to be rote and mechanical in their actions instead of improvising and using intuition. This carries over into the routine behavior in an individual's day-to-day life.

I would also challenge the credibility of the OCA as a gauge of improvement, because it is not changed the results will be influenced by the subject's previous knowledge of the test and with increased exposure to Scientology the individual's answers become colored by their understanding of how they are interpreted within the Scientology culture. In other words, the subject is inclined to become more PC with each test. They think that they can compensate for test results that are too cleverly answered by a person's instinctive ability to blend in with societal norms but at the same time they are teaching Scientologists how to do this within Scientological norms.

The OCA is probably more accurate as a gauge of indoctrination into Scientology.

Well TOBBy, thar be much truthful insight in your plaint...

Particularly as related to the use of "TR's" in running "Authoritarian Dominance Routines" (as Tarman, a wild jazzed-out old time hippie magus acquaintance would call such things)

But...

As an auditor I still am quite certainly pro-TR

I tend like the OCA too

I'll take it over the Minnesota Multi Phasic any day

For me, the personal change matched the OCA change

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Your ability to justify Hubbard's horrible actions continues to amaze me.

The reason Hubbard lied, defrauded huge numbers of people, abused people, promised miraculous results he knew he couldn't deliver, created a highly abusive Sea Org, created the highly abusive "RPF", split families --- on and on --- is because of the "enterprise"?????

Add that to the list of never ending bullshit excuses by people who can't confront reality. >ding<

Hubbard did research Bill

That research produced insights and techniques which can be used to good result even excellent, exceptional and extraordinary result and I have seen result so wondrous as to border on the miraculous...

Hubbard himself?

That dude appears to have had a dark side dark enough to be questioned as sinister, wicked, perverted or even evil.

Thus I am unwilling to join the CoS chorus of praise for him and will only speak well of his work in the presence of those who play the role of Devil's Advocate.

But tell me Bill...

How willing are you to confront the reality of the good results I produce having studied the randy old goat's work?

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

I'd also add the OCA serves as blatant confirmation bias. They tell you exactly what your problems are and what to expect from Scientology, so you anticipate it and even make reference to these things in the wins given to admiring applause in the course room and after auditing. There is strong peer pressure, negative consequences, and other influencing factors such as sunk cost considerations that influence our perceptions of OCA improvement.

It is extremely difficult to remove variables that influence outcomes in controlled test environments because the slightest perceptions can have significant influences but here you have the complete opposite where they consistently go out of their way to interject major contaminating variables deliberately intended to alter subjective and objective results in their favor.

There is also a lot of stigma associated with OCA results in the Scientology community. People are referred to as "low OCA" and designated as psychotic based on results. If the OCA is too high then they may even interpret that as akin to being sociopathic because you are operating on social mechanisms instead of being authentic.

Scientologists are highly motivated to not have to admit to a low OCA. They are also highly motivated to not have to admit that it is not an accurate representation after having classified so many people and making decisions that profoundly effect their lives according to it. A low OCA may cost tens of thousands more in auditing and training and job postings take a staff member's OCA into account. You might join the Sea Org wanting to be the best auditor there is and get a menial back office job for years or decades based on an OCA.

It isn't just a hook to get walk-ins off the street. This is a very serious subject.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

If you have confidence in the validity of your statements why do you find it necessary to insult people that disagree with your statements?

Ahhhh...

"nattering nabobs of negativism"

Of course if a person is down in the hostile, confrontational 1.0-2.0 band of the tone scale one is likely to take offence and umbrage at being insulted

As I have repeatedly both claimed and displayed respect and affection for those with whom I contend one should see this as playful banter

And perhaps if one is old enough to recall Richard Milhaus Nixon's Vice President Spiro T. Agnew one might have a sublime and sophisticated appreciation for it's playfulness.

Many posters my age are sure to recall the frequently alliterative Mr Agnew sharply denouncing Vietnam War protesters as "Nattering nabobs of negativism" and those who recall this are certain to recall Mr Agnew' public career ended in disgrace and he was forced to resign from the post John Nance Garner said "wasn't worth a bucket of warm spit" ("Jack Garner didn't say 'spit'" said my stepfather)

Thus...

I am dissembling in self parody to use Mr. Agnew's words

Particularly to people some of whom would like to see pressed to resign

Do you follow?

Am I thus absolved of a charge of insulting my tormentors?

 

[Clay Pigeon]

I'd also add the OCA serves as blatant confirmation bias. They tell you exactly what your problems are and what to expect from Scientology, so you anticipate it and even make reference to these things in the wins given to admiring applause in the course room and after auditing. There is strong peer pressure, negative consequences, and other influencing factors such as sunk cost considerations that influence our perceptions of OCA improvement.

It is extremely difficult to remove variables that influence outcomes in controlled test environments because the slightest perceptions can have significant influences but here you have the complete opposite where they consistently go out of their way to interject major contaminating variables deliberately intended to alter subjective and objective results in their favor.

There is also a lot of stigma associated with OCA results in the Scientology community. People are referred to as "low OCA" and designated as psychotic based on results. If the OCA is too high then they may even interpret that as akin to being sociopathic because you are operating on social mechanisms instead of being authentic.

Scientologists are highly motivated to not have to admit to a low OCA. They are also highly motivated to not have to admit that it is not an accurate representation after having classified so many people and making decisions that profoundly effect their lives according to it. A low OCA may cost tens of thousands more in auditing and training and job postings take a staff member's OCA into account. You might join the Sea Org wanting to be the best auditor there is and get a menial back office job for years or decades based on an OCA.

It isn't just a hook to get walk-ins off the street. This is a very serious subject.

O Yay-ass!!!

Absolutely TOBBy

No Doubt About It!!!

Inside CoS a low OCA PROVES!!!

You are a piece of shit.

And...

A high OCA PROVES!!!

You are a piece of shit.

And that's why although I like Auditing, Auditor Training and the OCA i'm not in CoS.

I'm here on The Ex Scientologist Message Board.

Where no one needs to see my OCA in order to know I am a piece of shit

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

O Yay-ass!!!

Absolutely TOBBy

No Doubt About It!!!

Inside CoS a low OCA PROVES!!!

You are a piece of shit.

And...

A high OCA PROVES!!!

You are a piece of shit.

And that's why although I like Auditing, Auditor Training and the OCA i'm not in CoS.

I'm here on The Ex Scientologist Message Board.

Where no one needs to see my OCA in order to know I am a piece of shit

Well, I don't know that you are a piece of shit by virtue of being here but you do seem to have taken up the mantle of resident chew toy and you do provide a certain insight into the thought processes behind people who try to retain respect for some aspects of Hubbard and Scientology in the face of all it's abuse and damage.

I ventured on ESMB at one point to work up a list of denigrating terms used in Scientology to classify people as you so eloquently put it "shit" and although extensive, it remains an incomplete list. DM seems to be adding a whole new set of classifications all on his own which will probably come to be known as NeoScientologyisms over time. The important takeaway is that so much of Scientology is structured around demeaning whole classes of people and asserting the right to do so. That should be all anyone needs to know about it.

A world dominated by Scientology as envisioned by Hubbard would be hell on earth yet some still struggle to parse it's benefits. Every family has someone who blurts out something over Christmas dinner that takes a lifetime to live down.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Resident Chew Toy?

I like it!!

CoS has the RTC and esmb has it's RCT.

 

[Bill]

Hubbard did research Bill

That research produced insights and techniques which can be used to good result even excellent, exceptional and extraordinary result and I have seen result so wondrous as to border on the miraculous...

Hubbard himself?

That dude appears to have had a dark side dark enough to be questioned as sinister, wicked, perverted or even evil.

Thus I am unwilling to join the CoS chorus of praise for him and will only speak well of his work in the presence of those who play the role of Devil's Advocate.

But tell me Bill...

How willing are you to confront the reality of the good results I produce having studied the randy old goat's work?

Look Birdy, I know that some people believed they got some good results some times. I have no problem "confronting" that "fact". It's part of the trap.

Because it is part of the trap and because there is so much evil in the whole Scientology package, I get a bit testy when some fool believer claims that Hubbard's "tech" is good. Overall, the "tech" which includes the "tech" trapping people and the "tech" of squeezing every last dime from people is bad.

Sure you believe you got some "good results". Fine. Scientology as a whole is very, very, very bad -- and any claim of "Scientology is good" is part of that damn trap.

 

[RogerB]

Reading the last 10 posts and the points expressed, I have the following to say.

As we know, Hubbard pinched techniques and technology from where ever he could get it. In an earlier post by Alan, citing Nibs Hubbard, the "TRs" were pinched from certain of the old Hindu and Buddhist practices.

Hubbard did actually says the TRs are drills that address an individual's COMMUNICATION abilities . . . indeed, when I was "in" I actually sold salesman training courses to life insurance companies based on use of the TRs to improve the ability of salesmen to perform. And yes, sales stats improved massively.

But, the other side of the coin is that everything Hubbard ever got his hands on he perverted and had it used destructively . . . and hence we see staff trained to mis-use TRs in a destructive manner to dominate both lower level staff and the paying members of the cult.

Hence, we can say in short, every piece of technology/technique acquired by Hubbard is actually used destructively.
/

 

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

Reading the last 10 posts and the points expressed, I have the following to say.

As we know, Hubbard pinched techniques and technology from where ever he could get it. In an earlier post by Alan, citing Nibs Hubbard, the "TRs" were pinched from certain of the old Hindu and Buddhist practices.

Hubbard did actually says the TRs are drills that address an individual's COMMUNICATION abilities . . . indeed, when I was "in" I actually sold salesman training courses to life insurance companies based on use of the TRs to improve the ability of salesmen to perform. And yes, sales stats improved massively.

But, the other side of the coin is that everything Hubbard ever got his hands on he perverted and had it used destructively . . . and hence we see staff trained to mis-use TRs in a destructive manner to dominate both lower level staff and the paying members of the cult.

Hence, we can say in short, every piece of technology/technique acquired by Hubbard is actually used destructively.
/

"every piece of technology/technique acquired by Hubbard is actually used destructively."

Even if it provided some gain of some kind there was probably always an Covert or Overt manipulative intent to his madness. Psychopathy abounded in that disturbed character.

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

"every piece of technology/technique acquired by Hubbard is actually used destructively."

Even if it provided some gain of some kind there was probably always an Covert or Overt manipulative intent to his madness. Psychopathy abounded in that disturbed character.

I consider this to be the true lasting benefit to the experience - the ability to recognize and define the manipulation behind the altruistic facade, not just for Scientology but as a life skill.

LRH said that evil was difficult to confront. One of the most important lessons I took from LRH is that people say what they really think and he was no exception.

 

[RogerB]

I consider this to be the true lasting benefit to the experience - the ability to recognize and define the manipulation behind the altruistic facade, not just for Scientology but as a life skill.

LRH said that evil was difficult to confront. One of the most important lessons I took from LRH is that people say what they really think and he was no exception.

Ya, Biggie, you are right on the button above.

Alan wrote here in ESMB in his posts about the unconfrontable recognition he experienced when he first recognized Hubbard's actual evil . . . it simply massively collided with his prior think about Hubbard . . . and Alan writes on how he personally was confronted with a massive internal "must not think that" . . . yet there it was stark and real: massive Hubbard evilness.

Alan and I did chat about these issues.

It's in Alan's post about "was John MacMaster" kidnapped??? . . . also a classic of truth is Alan's "Pandora's Box" thread.

 

[TheOriginalBigBlue]

Ya, Biggie, you are right on the button above.

Alan wrote here in ESMB in his posts about the unconfrontable recognition he experienced when he first recognized Hubbard's actual evil . . . it simply massively collided with his prior think about Hubbard . . . and Alan writes on how he personally was confronted with a massive internal "must not think that" . . . yet there it was stark and real: massive Hubbard evilness.

Alan and I did chat about these issues.

It's in Alan's post about "was John MacMaster" kidnapped??? . . . also a classic of truth is Alan's "Pandora's Box" thread.

The RPF and the RPF's RPF should have been the blatant red flag for me but it was sold as a standard LRH technical program using auditing and MEST work to rehabilitate a being that was in a very poor state ie. had deep subconscious evil intentions, etc. - and it was voluntary.

Of course, now we know the pressure and manipulation that was brought to bear in order to get people to "volunteer".

The other big red flag was that things were supposed to be more sane the closer you got to Ron but that just wasn't in evidence. Consistently the people I saw who had the closest connection to Ron appeared stressed and unhappy. I may have had good working relationships with these people and they may have been competent within the insane rationals of Scio world but their quality of life just did not appear sustainable and I couldn't see anything that demonstrated any conditions would ever happen within the organization that would change that.

They asked me to go "over the rainbow" before the 77 raid but between these two things I had already figured out that something was very wrong up there enough to decline. I couldn't put it into words like I can now but at that point I wasn't sticking around so much for Ron or even my own ambitions for "going up the Bridge" or "Clearing the Planet" as I was for my fellow crew members. I sincerely liked these people and we had been through a lot together and the ranks of people that I knew the closest and longest was continually shrinking by attrition.

I'm sure part of LRH's evil was deliberately predating on other people's sense of loyalty. It makes us willing to tolerate and rationalize many things far longer than we should.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Look Birdy, I know that some people believed they got some good results some times. I have no problem "confronting" that "fact". It's part of the trap.

Because it is part of the trap and because there is so much evil in the whole Scientology package, I get a bit testy when some fool believer claims that Hubbard's "tech" is good. Overall, the "tech" which includes the "tech" trapping people and the "tech" of squeezing every last dime from people is bad.

Sure you believe you got some "good results". Fine. Scientology as a whole is very, very, very bad -- and any claim of "Scientology is good" is part of that damn trap.

Well...

I would say Scientology as a hole is a very bad thing

Again...

I am ONLY willing to speak highly of that which is very Very VERY good about Hubbard's work here on ESMB where anyone who reads it gets to read the opinion of people like you

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Reading the last 10 posts and the points expressed, I have the following to say.

As we know, Hubbard pinched techniques and technology from where ever he could get it. In an earlier post by Alan, citing Nibs Hubbard, the "TRs" were pinched from certain of the old Hindu and Buddhist practices.

Hubbard did actually says the TRs are drills that address an individual's COMMUNICATION abilities . . . indeed, when I was "in" I actually sold salesman training courses to life insurance companies based on use of the TRs to improve the ability of salesmen to perform. And yes, sales stats improved massively.

But, the other side of the coin is that everything Hubbard ever got his hands on he perverted and had it used destructively . . . and hence we see staff trained to mis-use TRs in a destructive manner to dominate both lower level staff and the paying members of the cult.

Hence, we can say in short, every piece of technology/technique acquired by Hubbard is actually used destructively.
/

It's not use destructively by me.

And never was.

And not by anyone who cleaves to the basic simple Judeochristian ethos and the principes of the Bill of Rights.

And a grassroots movement of such people might be...

Well...

No telling what it might be until it happens

 

[Clay Pigeon]

"every piece of technology/technique acquired by Hubbard is actually used destructively."

Even if it provided some gain of some kind there was probably always an Covert or Overt manipulative intent to his madness. Psychopathy abounded in that disturbed character.

And yet...

Without his "psychopathy" maybe his work scarcely impinges on the culture at all...

"You can't make an omelet w/o breaking a few eggs."

 

[Clay Pigeon]

I consider this to be the true lasting benefit to the experience - the ability to recognize and define the manipulation behind the altruistic facade, not just for Scientology but as a life skill.

LRH said that evil was difficult to confront. One of the most important lessons I took from LRH is that people say what they really think and he was no exception.

So...

Hubbard produced in you a dedicated Cynic

My family has always made camp with the Stoics