ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Gerry Armstrong

Discussion in 'Fair Game and Disconnection Victims' started by Caroline, Jan 14, 2017.

  1. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Leah Remini has repeated throughout the series, including in the finale:

    Gerry has written a review or reply from the perspective of Mike Rinder’s long known long term victim.

    Gerry describes similarities between Remini and Rinder going off to see the lawyer and the entrapment operation Rinder was also involved in, which sent Gerry off to see the lawyer in 1984.

  2. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Re: Leah Remini Finale


    Thanks Caroline for your post and for re-posting Gerry's.

    It's well within the realm of reason that Mike Rinder is en route to destination--such that you would be half-right and half-wrong about holding him to an idealized or perfected moral position. In other words, he has been journeying (since leaving the COS) towards what might be described as full recognition and abnegation of all things Scientology, including perhaps his own indiscretions while in the cult.

    There seems no doubt whatsoever that Mike has gone full SP, exposing Hubbard's fake tech, fraud, avarice, ops, terrorism and fair game. He ain't no Scientologist. Does this automatically mean he wishes to re-visit all his destructive acts on behalf of Hubbard's/Miscavige's pathology? In general, YES. Specifically and completely, he obviously has not done that in Gerry's case.

    It may be ahead. It may require a special way of triggering or sparking that kind of event to happen. After all, who in their right mind would want to subject themselves to Gerry's laser-focused, fact-laden recriminations? It doesn't have ANY attraction to someone, I would surmise, who is putting their lives back together and trying to manage their lives while fending off the COS attacks.

    Sure, in a perfect world, Mike would VOLUNTEER for a beatdown from Gerry. But who would want to volunteer for such a brutal encounter.

    Hey, I don't have any reason to lecture either Mike or Jerry, but I will say that Gerry's unrelenting demand for detailed and contrite fact spewing from Rinder/Rathbun is not very inviting. Perhaps if there were an intermediary or a forum where there was some promise of Rinder maintaining some sense of grace or dignity, it would be far easier to bring him out to talk about it.

    I love what Gerry has done to battle the COS and respect all of the untold discombobulation to his life and suffering that ensued. It truly sucks. And he managed it with great dignity and uncommon perseverance.

    Rinder's had his hands full too, even considering that he was on the wrong side of the fair-gaming while on post in the COS. But, in an awkwardly paradoxical way, weren't we all? By simply working for Hubbard's cult in any capacity?
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
  3. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    It sounds by this that you didn’t realize that I had only posted a short excerpt. I got the same understanding from your whole response to what Gerry is communicating in his article. On reflection, your idea about reposting was really the best way to go in this instance, so I'll do that below. I apologize for not doing it earlier. Gerry's article has historical significance, obviously.

    Gerry really doesn't hold Rinder to anything or ask him to do anything in his article, although what he has in the past asked of Rinder and believes Rinder should do is well known. Gerry was really pointing out parallels between the original Loyalist Op and the op that's now playing and their commonality of players.

    He has been noting such parallels ever since Rathbun and Rinder came out as Loyalists several years ago. When we watched the part in the finale where Rinder and Remini were going to meet with the New York attorneys, the similarities with the Janeway scam in the original op were striking.

  4. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Re: Leah Remini Finale


    I don't believe it is well known ... What exactly is it that Gerry wants from Mike Rinder?

  5. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    AND... that should be able to be summarized in no more than 300 words. This should be easy to do.
    Lay it out in brief specific points of current requirements (not history):
    1. ...
    2. ...
    3. ...
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
  6. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Re: Leah Remini Finale


    I dislike when you hijack popular threads and thread topics to re-post your documents about Gerry over and over on ESMB. It can be a real thread killer.

    This is a Leah Remini thread and was getting a lot of hits from never-ins and exes who hadn't contacted ESMB before Leah Remini did her series. The hits quickly dwindled when the subject was again brought around to Gerry.

    Not everything is about Gerry Armstrong, nor should it be.
  7. Caroline

    Caroline Patron Meritorious

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    Thanks everyone for the good suggestions for Gerry.

    My posts are on topic and relevant. I'm not trying to engineer stats.

    At about 2:11 Leah included excerpts from an important document which I've posted in the Important Documents forum. The document provides, among other things, Hubbard's scriptural motivation for his criminal conspiracy.

    Mike Rinder operated on this Guardian Order. His CO OSA Int post was at the level of the Guardian Worldwide. Rathbun was CS-G (Commodore's Staff Guardian) level. Miscavige became "source" of policies like what Hubbard ordered in this Guardian Order. Rinder controlled the personnel beneath him that organizationally had been beneath the Guardian.

    I'll highlight the parts that Leah highlighted in the finale, as Mike Rinder said this to her about her Scientology attackers:

    Gerry Armstrong has written many times about the impact of Scientology on his employers and how they threatened his jobs over the years. In a declaration on 2 February 1993 Gerry provided several examples of how Scientology during the Rinder/Rathbun years conspired to threaten his employers and his jobs. Everyone should appreciate all this documentation.

  8. NoName

    NoName A Girl Has No Name

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    More to the point, does Gerry expect Mike Rinder to be deprogramming at some arbitrary rate that Gerry thinks is appropriate?

    Your concern about Mike being something of an apologist are noted. In my opinion that has stopped quite recently. I would add that last week Rinder posted some OT III documents on his blog and pissed off many of his readers in the process.

    Around that same time, I read Mike's words on the last chapter of Cannane's book. If you haven't read it, you really should. Rinder's explanation was very sincere, and he acknowledged that he was defending the subject matter of Scientology at first, and he explains how and why he's over it. It was beautifully stated, and I respect him for being so vulnerable in his explanation.
  9. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    Posted by Caroline and snipped.

    Your posts read like cult "Knowledge Reports" and trying to create some kind of drama between Mike and Leah is ridiculous.

    I doubt if most people here these days know who Gerry is ... why don't you start a new thread giving a brief outline on what happened to him when he left the cult and word it less like a KR or legal document?

    Tell us how he is doing now ... I believe people would be interested in that and perhaps you could take an interest yourself in other peoples posts here instead of just slinging down reams of stuff about Gerry and then sitting back to watch what happens with your "TR's" firmly in place?

    I'm sorry if I sound harsh but surely you can see that what you are doing is not working, it may even be having the opposite effect to the one that I assume you are trying to create and harming Gerry's reputation.

    If you want people to know what happened to Gerry, start again ... keep it simple, link to docs or long pieces of information, add something to your siggy line so every post contains a link to the new readable version of events ... and be ready to receive opinions and extra info about what happened from those who may see it differently or who disagree, because that is what happens on a message board.

    I sincerely wish you both the best.

  10. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    I politely disagree.
    I would rather read from Caroline on her own experiences and what has happened with her and not her frequent wall-of-text about what Gerry has said. Gerry should post here for himself.

    I prefer Caroline talking for herself in her own opinions and experiences in her own words, not just quoting Gerry.

    That's my opinion.
  11. TrevAnon

    TrevAnon Big List researcher

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    This, and thank you.

    Caroline, hate to say it, but mostly your posts for me are tl;dr.

    Could well be however I'm not the intended audience anyway. :)
  12. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    Fair enough ... I think we would all prefer that, it was just an idea ...
  13. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron

    I have to say I think Gerry is wrong about Mike. To say that he's an agent still working for the co$ is ridiculous. Aftermath is doing massive damage to the co$. No OSA agent would be allowed to what Mike is doing. This unfortunately shows Gerry is quite biased, still seeing the world through 30 year old lens. He's not garnering any support with such a stance against Mike who has quite clearly come around in recent years.
  14. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    I completely agree.

    Mike Rinder has done plenty to cause trouble for COS behind the scenes for years since he came forward and never wavered from being a stand-up guy when it came to fighting COS. The Aussies know. :yes:

    He and Marty Rathbun are two very different people with different personalities, backgrounds and responses. Whereas Marty seems to like to speak in code or puzzles and tell exaggerated stories of self-heroics and has rarely coordinated anything with the exes because his personal ego demands he always be in charge, Mike is not like that. Caroline also states that Marty's book of badly written BS, "Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior" was "their" book, and that is not true. It is strictly and only Marty's spin on things.

    For Mike to say things like, "but we're friends now, right?" is just something Mike would say. Those of us who truly left COS began mostly by building on our younger, pre-Scientology selves. Pre-Scientology, Mike Rinder was just a young kid. He is trying to set things right. He is very clear which side he is on now and he's doing a great job.

    Its terrible that in his Sea Org days, Mike pretended to be a friend to Gerry and betrayed him, so I can see how that statement might be upsetting to Gerry so he takes it in the reverse way it was meant, but something that happened 30 or more years ago doesn't mean it repeats. There are things we've all done in our lives we would never, ever do again. :no:
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  15. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    I'm guessing this for one:

    If this is not the case they would have told the truth about the unlawful way they obtained it; which, significantly, was by framing my attorney, framing me, filing false statements with the IRS, and conducting a massive, ongoing black propaganda campaign.[5]

    For two:
    To come clean. Did you read the above article?
  16. TheSneakster

    TheSneakster More Skeptical Than You

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    Gerry Armstrong has made a great many public allegations that Co$ tried to have him assassinated upon multiple occasions. There is still content that states this on his web site. Despite his meticulous and detailed documentation of his various court battles with Co$, there is no evidence (copies of reports to law enforcement and the results of their investigations) posted anywhere that any such attempts ever occurred.

    These accusations indirectly accuse Mike and Marty of trying to have him murdered, since it is well known that they were in charge of external "handlings" during the period these attempts were alleged to have been made. Furthermore, Gerry also implies that these two are incompetent as he is still alive and has never presented any evidence that he was even injured in any such assassination attempt.

    In my opinion, neither Mike Rinder nor Mark Rathbun are ever going to comply to any requests or demands from Gerry until such a time as he publicly retracts these allegations and publicly apologizes to Mike and Marty for having so maliciously libeled them.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientology
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  17. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    ...maliciously libeled them.

    I see what you did there.
  18. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    Maybe it would be another way to help bring about the demise of scientology, to expose all of the operations that went on back when Mike was still in. Aftermath, appeals to the public by showing the human abuse that scientology policy causes, but to add in the underlying criminal activity that went on back when Mike was involved could help, (maybe even more then the human abuses) to get some government involvement.

    Surely there is still an underlying criminal activity going on in scientology today. If Mike could be convinced that those past activities exposure would help in the fight against scientology, and would be willing to speak out about what went on back then it could not only help expose scientology more but go toward mending the conflicts between past participants of scientology. The more spotlight on scientology the better.
  19. TheSneakster

    TheSneakster More Skeptical Than You

    Mike Rinder has already publicly stated and was corroborated by Mark "Marty" Rathbun (in the Tampa Bay Times Truth Rundown series) that the reason he was David "Darth Midget" Miscavige's favorite punching bag was his (and Marty's) refusal to follow DM orders that required actually breaking the law. If you refuse to accept that as truth, then why should you believe anything else he has to say, please ?

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
  20. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    Over the years I have "speed read" much of what Caroline has posted and I usually end up more confused than when I started which is why I suggested she start a new thread giving a brief outline about what happened to Gerry when he left the cofs.

    Many people around here these days know nothing at all about him.

    Wikipedia does have a basic outline here.

    If Gerry wants further issues addressed or re-addressed and he feels he has a chance of achieving whatever it is he now wants he may need to take it where it belongs, back into a court ... a message board isn't the place for it and what Caroline is doing (presumably with Gerry's approval) is effectively attention seeking and does him no favours IMO.

    I wish Gerry and Caroline would throw their combined support behind so many others who are putting themselves on the line to bring down the real enemy ... the cult of scientology, because they could have a very real impact and would perhaps feel better overall about what was undeniably done to Gerry to make his life hell in the past by the cofs.

    Gerry appears to have already well and truly breached any agreements made (with the cofs) so I assume has little left to lose at this stage, but that is only an assumption.