ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Gerry Armstrong

Discussion in 'Fair Game and Disconnection Victims' started by Caroline, Jan 14, 2017.

  1. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    "LRH didn't know."

    The date on the Truth Rundown was 2009?

    Related to this topic is Mike Rinder writing on whether Hubbard knew about illegality.

    In 2012, Rinder insisted that Hubbard didn't know.

    I ask you, Sneakster, was Mike Rinder telling the truth when he stated this?

    From Mike Rinder commenting on Marty Rathbun's blog. December 2012:

    mrinder December 17, 2012 at 1:11 am

    Not sure where you get your information from that LRH approved operations against Paulette Cooper or Gabe Cazares? Or are you asserting this based on the logic of “it was his organization so therefore he knew”?

    mrinder December 17, 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Clearly you didnt know Mary Sue Hubbard. If you had you would understand how silly this is. He is the LAST person on earth she would tell about illegal actions. Your assumptions are just that, and certainly not based on anything other than “Most dogs are brown. He has a dog. Therefore his dog is brown.” The outpoint in your conclusion is “assume similarities are not similar.”

    mrinder December 17, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    Yeah, that’s Tonja Burden. Who filed a civil case trying to collect money. There was TONS of shredding done in the paranoia to eradicate anything that gave ANY connection between LRH and the GO. It was nuts and unreal. But I do not believe ANY documents ever indicated any connection between LRH and an “operative” doing some illegal act.

    But this is a debate that is pointless continuing. It’s unprovable either way. And no matter what I say, it won’t satisfy those who wish to believe otherwise.​


  2. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Well, Sneakster was here but chose not to reply.

    Here's a complete reversal from Rinder from 15 months later. 2014 March:

    mrinder on March 11, 2014 at 1:48 pm

    < snip >

    Just for starters, DM most certainly was Action Chief CMO Int. For MANY years. It was where he gained the trust of LRH and LRH started calling him “Misc” and addressing despatches to him that way. One of the few people that LRH addressed on despatches with cc’s to their nickname. Miscavige was NOT Mission IC of “Special Project”, Terri Gamboa was. Miscavige was “Special Pjt Ops” (as in Mission Operator).

    Ron absolutely abolished the GO. The Exec Strata was formed and the issues written about it before the formation of OSA. I had personal conversations with LRH about the disbandment of the GO and his desire to see it eradicated entirely as it had become a liability. You do not think that the GO was disbanded without his knowledge and Guardian PL canceled etc etc etc. Where are the docs? They don’t exist, remember, LRH was trying to avoid being connected in any way to the actions of the GO or Mary Sue, he was an unindicted co-conspirator.

    Nothing was in writing. And though he had expressed a LOT of disgust about the GO during the “Confront of Evil” period and the formation of the Office of Evaluation and Execution, where it came up routinely that GO staff were employing org staff in their personal business, the reason for disbanding the GO was that they were not protecting him from criminal and civil liability. He considered they had betrayed him (inclusive of Mary Sue).

    The idea that he knew nothing about Snow White and the illegal acts that were ongoing is tantamount to saying L. Ron Hubbard was blind, unaware and incapable of spotting an outpoint. That was NOT the case. He was briefed by Mary Sue every single day at lunch during the heyday of the GO Ops — in detail. If she didnt tell him “Joe Blow infiltrated the IRS and got documents” she told him what they knew (if you don’t believe he expected to be briefed about everything the GO was doing, then you also give him less credit than he deserved, he was not one not to be curious) and he would have figured it out. Believe me, the programs and actions written to implement Snow White WERE know[n] and authorized all the way to the top.

    LRH directed exactly what was to be done at the Mission Holders Conference in SFO following the one in Clearwater. The whole thing was recorded so it could be sent to him. He listened to it, sent Miscavige and the others commendations and ordered that the entire transcript be published.

    So we know Rinder can lie with perfect "TRs." (See earlier post.) This doesn't minimize his actual truth telling which is welcomed and appreciated, but let's be realistic. Is it unreasonable to assume that, currently, he may not be giving us the full story?
  3. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    I see your point, Veda. Mike Rinder has become increasingly forthright with some details and you seem to be indicating that Marty was changing in that direction, too, until he had his meltdown. There is an inference that Mike Rinder might end up the same, but there are far more differences in Mike and Marty than similarities. You have pointed out yourself that when peeling the onion, the truth comes off in layers and that is pretty typical of recovering exes.

    Some believe Marty's meltdown was intentional. I do not. I thought it was inevitable. He became a public figure using the same arrogant scn persona he was when he left COS, without dealing with the aftermath and chaos in his own mind first. Though Marty's meldowns had the most fireworks, there have been other public figures in the ex network who also jumped in too quickly and similarly blew up, then crashed and burned because they also had not dealt with their own chaos first. (I will not name names here, but I'm sure you remember).

    Mike Rinder has been out a lot longer and he paced himself throughout. There has been no rollercoaster ride with Mike like with Marty, nor any of the bragging or condescending mud-slinging that Marty threw around.

    I believe Mike Rinder has enough sense to know when to back off and take some personal time if things get too much for him. That seems to be what Marty is doing now, and it is far more sensible than the manic highs and lows and strange psychedelic trips he took us through. Mike is down to earth.

    They are so different, Veda. I don't see Mike Rinder trying to be any sort of exscn leader. No one should convict a man for things he could possibly do in the future. Mike has been helping in a huge way. I am grateful he has helped so many folks get out of the cult or recover from it. What he is doing is GOOD. That's the bottom line.
  4. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Hi Sheila :),

    My two posts were a response to a post by Sneakster.

    IMO, it's extremely far fetched to assert that Mike Rinder, while the Director of Scientology's Office of Special Affairs from 1982 to 2007, was not involved in any illegal actions; and that David Miscavige's right hand man, Marty Rathbun, also abstained from any illegality.

    Don't follow either Mike or Marty's blog on a regular basis these days so I'm not up to date. Are they still denying having done anything illegal?

    After leaving the organization, it took years for them to admit that Hubbard was involved in illegal acts, and they both spent those years lying like a rug, with perfect TR-L, to cover Hubbard's posterior - his, um, "legacy," and "image," and "reputation."

    This changed a while back and I recognized and appreciated that change.

    However, realistically, probably the last change to occur would be to admit to having personally participated in illegal actions, or to provide a thorough and detailed recounting of those illegal actions.

    As far as what has been admitted or not admitted, in recent times, regarding illegal actions, I don't know.
  5. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    In a perfect world we would all have scrupulously "clean hands" ... in a scientology world we all know that you can be RPF'd and shunned just for daring to look sideways at the wrong moment. Somewhere in between there is the REAL non cultic world which is where most of us now reside and where people are "allowed" to choose for themselves how they want to live without having to tolerate constant nagging from the sidelines.

    Here's an idea. If anyone has anything ... stop blathering and cough up (and bring docs if I were you) .... otherwise STFU and MYOB because sec checks and guilt trips are so 1980.


  6. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Uh oh.:unsure: My response to a post by Sneakster seems to a touched a nerve.

    From a 1999 affidavit by Jesse Prince:

    "It is incumbent on this and every court to realize the amount of deception, chicanery, lying, manipulation and outright criminality that Scientology will employ to hide the truth about their criminal activities. They will spend any amount of money to do this. I know because I was part of it for years. I received orders to break the law. I issued orders to break the law. I got others to break the law, and then I helped to hide these criminal activities just as they are hiding them now. In fact, the tactic is one of the most coercive used by the Scientology hierarchy: to involve members in criminal acts for which they are then liable, which then prevents the person from speaking out."​

    I've complimented both Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder for their truth telling and their good deeds, and done so repeatedly. Do I have to also "shut the fuck up"? If so, that's asking too much. :)
  7. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    It would appear that Sneaks failed to jump in to your little trap, I wouldn't have expected him to though, he isn't a fool.

    What do you mean by "seems to have touched a nerve"?

    Are you implying now that I may also have been involved in something illegal?

    For the record I don't doubt that the cofs did and probably continues to do things that are outside the law as well as downright wrong morally ... my issue is with the demands for "full disclosure" from ex scientologists ... which is just another version of "what are your crimes?".

    Look after your own "ethics" and leave others to take care of theirs.

    We are not in a cult now.
  8. Churchill

    Churchill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Re: Leah Remini Finale

    Can you link to some of these allegations which you claim Gerry Armstrong has repeatedly publicly made?
    I'm unable to find any.
  9. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Few ex-scns have stepped into the public light about the evils of scn that they experienced and remained in that light for any length of time. It takes a certain strength of character and determination to do so, as well as giving up the majority of your personal life, privacy and time.

    Not everyone can do that well and most people don't want to do it at all. You don't. Surveys show that most people fear public speaking more than death, but public speakers are a necessary part of fighting the crimes of scn.

    So far, Mike Rinder has mostly chosen not to reveal criminal details publicly or does not remember those details clearly. It's one or the other, maybe a bit of both.

    As a public speaker and a contact point, he's doing a great job. IMHO, undermining him with suspicions without facts is unfair and detrimental to getting others out of the cult.
  10. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    This is to what I responded, a silly post from Sneakster:


    If any "undermining" is occurring, it's by someone such as Sneakster, making the absurd assertion that the head of Scientology's spying and dirty tricks dept., and also the right hand man to Scientology's dictator, "refused to break the law," and coupling that assertion with the additionally absurd assertion that, "If you refuse to accept that as truth, then why should you believe anything else he has to say?..."

    IMO, pedestals are nice for flower arrangements but people should not be placed on them.
  11. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron


    I'm sure you grant that unwinding from the mindfuck takes some time. Mike is no different in that regard than any of us. It's not surprising that the story might morph. It should also be noted that Mike was not in a position to know what was going on with Operation Freak-out as he was not in the loop when that was playing out in the main. How he "knows" about MSH being briefed daily is probably not from personal knowledge unless he is referring to a later period when he was in a position to know.

    I'm sure there is more that he could tell about OSA operations, legal or illegal. I rather doubt that he personally performed illegal acts, but certainly could have approved or ordered them. Whether that makes him a legal accessory is not for me to say as I am not a legal expert.

    I do see a man that is making a significant contribution to exposing and bringing to end the damages wrought by co$. For that I thank & applaud him.
  12. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    The sole reason for my participation on this thread was to attempt to reach Sneakster.

    The entire purpose of my response to Sneakster's post was to "trick" him into poking his head out of the Scientology bubble, and free him, at least somewhat, from the mindfuck.

    Other (well meaning) posts made that more difficult, by telling me things I already knew or about which I already agreed. These (well meaning) comments distracted from the propose of my response to Sneakster.

    I can't help but feel that a new FBI raid is needed to expose the spying and dirty tricks of the 1980s and 1990s.

    When Mary Sue was removed nothing changed.

    As it stands now, between people dying off, and gag agreements having been signed - short of another FBI raid - the covert actions and harassment of the 1980s and 1990s are mostly destined to disappear into black hole, or already have.

    Scientology erases people and erases history. The little bit mentioned on this thread is the tip of the iceberg.

    Again, my participation on this thread was solely about (a, granted, spur of the moment) attempt at helping Sneakster.

    That is all.
  13. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    It's all good Veda ... I'm sorry if I jumped down your throat.

  14. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron

    If Sneaks is still drinking the Kool-Aid at this point, I'm not sure there is much that can be done for him from ESMB. He can't see the total fail that Scn has become in his own life. He's had many years to inform himself. I guess he likes his beliefs more than truth. Not uncommon for run of the mill humanoids. :whistling:
  15. cakemaker

    cakemaker Patron Meritorious

    Lois Reisdorf, one of LRH's messenger's at the time, was asked about this in one of her recollections posted on Mike Rinder's blog

  16. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    Thanks, Veda. No worries.

    Mike Rinder most certainly did know about the destroying of the missions and participate in it at the time, though I hope my story makes it clear that this plan to loot the missions was already concocted without him as early as the beginning of 1979. There is no question of my dates, as I re-entered the SO then and by Feb or Mar 1979 was Dir Income USGO.

    Mike Rinder initially didn't go with the idea, but later signed off on it.

    I was in the SO many years before I realized that those with high ranks who had worked closely with L Ron, such as Capt Bill, the Epsteins, the Dirmanns, Valerie and Joe Lisa, James Byrne (who was a real a&hole until he ended up at AOLA) and a few select others (which later included David Miscavige) were the controlling cabal within the Sea Org. Others were used as figureheads and came and went.

    Those folks shared some common characteristics and a common psychopathy with Hubbard: a ruthlessness and abandonment of compassion in the name of prosperity for the "church," a disregard and disdain for others' views and lives, an attitude of superiority, a willingness to hide violent and vicious crimes and a willingness to use any amount of force to punish and destroy others in the name of their "church."

    The final tipping point when I realized that was after a few years of officer selection ceremonies in 82-84 when Jack and Irene Dirmann lavished more ranks on themselves and their buddies, but few to anyone else. It was nearly impossible for anyone to get past PO3. They had no intention of promoting others into their group. Even the Sea Org had its own glass ceiling.

    I suspect Valerie and Joe Lisa were already in direct touch with David Miscavige, and through him, Hubbard, in 1979 when Val systematically billed outrageous amounts to the missions and then worked out how to steal their monies and destroy them and finally, by her own statement to me, convinced Mike Rinder to approve it.

    Yes, Mike Rinder eventually signed off and approved those things, but he already had Hubbard, DM and their loyal henchmen above him pushing their agenda - if he didn't approve it, he was gone. Mike Rinder also participated and Mike Rinder eventually took on that psychopathic mindset for a while, too.

    But IMHO, Rinder still always held back a part of his true self. He was not one to beat up and terrorize others. DM must have hated him for that. He was never really one of the "Scientology Sea Org elite psychopaths." Not Mike Rinder, not Bill Franks, not Heber Jentzsch, not even Jesse Prince. They were used, first elevated as figureheads and then taken down. Though none of them retained their integrity throughout, I saw what I felt were those hardhearted veterans who were completely lost in the bubble "us against them" world of scn never to return, and those who were temporarily caught up in it from the contagion of insanity around them, but held a part of themselves back so were able to return to sanity and recover themselves when they left.

    I'm not sure where Marty fits into that, though. :laugh:
  17. exsomessenger

    exsomessenger Patron Meritorious

    Thanks for all this great info. I believe there are a few more key people that belong in this equation. Norman starkey comes to mind as not one. But is cont to be used. The Issacsons, Bolger and Bolstads.

    Again thanks for your great insight.
  18. cakemaker

    cakemaker Patron Meritorious

    Here's some background from Mike Rinder about the missions' destruction.
  19. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    The OP seems to imply that Mike Rinder can't be trusted and he might be participating in some kind of Church entrapment operation.

    There has been a lot of excellent commentary on this point and what should be expected of someone like Mike given their history and I don't feel like I can add much to that except - if Mike is conducting a double agent operation to provide cover for the Church and to help them destroy their enemies, this must be one of the most poorly conceived ops in all the history of overly clever self destructive Scientology ops.

    Your mission is to get Leah Remini to interview major SPs in a series of extremely professional documentaries with graphic and emotional revelations about Scientology fraud and abuse which will break viewing records and be distributed world wide. After achieving this you will reveal to the world that you were a plant and this was all a contrived plan by the Church to discredit Leah Remini and all the SPs thereby re-establishing the public's trust and appreciation for all the good things Scientology does.
  20. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    I don't see full disclosure or at least a lot more disclosure as necessarily a cultic confessional. It could be a very very useful historical record. That historical l record could well highlight that the operations of the cult are grievous in the extreme and indemic to Scientology spanning it's entire existence. It shows the huge dangers to individual and society alike both within and outside any organization which implements its actual motives, not its PR claimed motives.
    Yes, we are out of the cult and I am not hoping for more detail to lesson Mike or anyone else for that matter, but for primarily educational and factual history.
    And of course to end the harm and secondarily some recompense to come from the coffers.
    I am not a fan of punishment being glued to Justice.
    But the ongoing loss of liberty is compounding the torts. The greater the exposure the greater chance of Gerry and all others regaining complete liberty.