iScientology.org - A new home for Independent Scientology?
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Gib
Crusader
Thanks. No worries.
I got too serious for lack of better saying. I'm happy you said what you said above.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
And I think that BOTH you and Claire are basically right about Geir and his views
(although I'm not sure how this came up as a topic 
). And yes, he has been "out" for three years, but that isn't all that long a period, especially given how long he was "in". Many who have been out longer still have greater difficulties dealing with confusion.
Geir is obviously an unusually intelligent individual. He has gone straight to the heart of many tangled issues in his discussions of his own efforts at dealing with the many lies & misconceptions promoted by the church.
I don't doubt his thinking has evolved far beyond where it once was. From what I've learned of him in my prior exchanges with him, I'm sure he remains open to the prospect of further evolution in his thought.
Mark A. Baker
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
As has already been pointed out here, I own the forum he started. And I have read his other material.
So as assumptions go, yours doesn't work. 'Twould have been a far far better thing if not presented as fact, but, rather, hypothesis.
And, personally, three years out isn't all that long a time for someone who spent decades in the cult and went OTVIII. Kinda not much time in ex cultie/recovering cultie years, IMO.
(sorta reminds me of something I read once where the female protagonist is talking about length of time before some guy calls her- "does he have any idea how much that is in girl years?")
Gib
Crusader
OK, I stand corrected. Thanks.
Free Being Me
Crusader
NEWS FLASH
Here are some examples of beliefs that people are entitled to.
Klu Klux Klan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
The Inquisition(s): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
Salem Witch Trials: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
Human Sacrifice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice
Adolf Hitler quote: "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."
(Reichstag Speech 1936) http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Essay:Hitler_quotes
Humorism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism
Blood Letting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting
Demonic Possession: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonic_possession
Galileo affair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair
Beliefs should be challenged, examined, and analyzed. The convenient excuse that people are entitled to their beliefs as a shield to deflect critical thinking, especially when said beliefs have lead to physical, emotional and financial harm in the past as well in the present, is just that, an excuse. Beliefs have real world consequences.
Smilla
Ordinary Human
The 'everybody's different and entitled to their beliefs' nonsence is a thought stopping cliche and nothing more than that.
Which of these have beliefs which should be respected:
The Dalai Lama.
Charles Manson.
Ghandi.
L Ron Hubbard.
The self-appointed thread police of ESMB.
Plato.
Which of these have beliefs which should be respected:
The Dalai Lama.
Charles Manson.
Ghandi.
L Ron Hubbard.
The self-appointed thread police of ESMB.
Plato.
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
Those aren't just beliefs, they are criminal and immoral actions.
Do let me know when non CofS Scn'ists start doing stuff like that, won't you?
MissWog
Silver Meritorious Patron
Goodness, I wish I was as well spoken and written as most of you are!!
I'm gonna memorize that and use it when my friends say "People can believe what ever they want to I don't care"
THANK YOU!
Gadfly
Crusader
Personally, I do feel that people should be free to believe whatever they choose, as long as they don't hurt anybody in the process.
The qualifier is key here - as long as they don't hurt anybody in the process.
And if they hurt themselves along the way THAT doesn't count. That is the price of freedom. Freedom means that people must be guaranteed the right to act out their own stupidity and idiocy. You can't have it both ways - and I sure do NOT want any form of thought police dictating which beliefs are acceptable and which ones aren't. Allowing people the freedom to believe whatever nonsense they choose is the least of all possible evils.
My only restriction is, again - as long as they don't hurt anybody (besides themselves).
Obviously organized Scientology very much violates that because it DOES consistently harm people in the following of their beliefs (Hubbard's nonsensical paradigm).
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Free Being Me
Crusader
NEWS FLASH
Here are some examples of beliefs that people are entitled to.
Klu Klux Klan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
The Inquisition(s): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
Salem Witch Trials: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
Human Sacrifice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice
Adolf Hitler quote: "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."
(Reichstag Speech 1936) http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Essay:Hitler_quotes
Humorism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humorism
Blood Letting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting
Demonic Possession: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonic_possession
Galileo affair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair
Beliefs should be challenged, examined, and analyzed. The convenient excuse that people are entitled to their beliefs as a shield to deflect critical thinking, especially when said beliefs have lead to physical, emotional and financial harm in the past as well in the present, is just that, an excuse. Beliefs have real world consequences.[/QUOTE]
I see at the iScientology.org site that DM is the scapegoat for all that's wrong with Scientology. At the Beliefs section I see a detailed list of outrages, a good start by the way, but misleading due to LRH being the creator and policy maker of Scientology, he made and enforced repugnant policies, bringing mental, emotional and monetary ruin to his followers. DM is a draconian enforcer, LRH had a more subtle approach.
As Independent Scientologists believe RLH tech, they are perpetrating the abuses and crimes of LRH's Scientology by tacit agreement, continuing a cultist indoctrination of mind control.
Were iScientology to post clearly and contritely, that they disavowed (above what's already stated) the following LRH policies:
Disconnection
RPF
GO
OSA
High Crimes
KSW
Acknowledge the deaths of the people listed at WhyAreTheyDead.net
http://www.xenu-directory.net/mirrors/www.whyaretheydead.net/
Acknowledge and disavow LRH Covert Operations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guardian's_Office_operations
I see the iScio Beliefs section as a good start but weighing the history of Scientology, I don't trust subjective belief systems, much less Scientology as it stands presently. History is full of examples of despicable belief based actions, so I don't believe what Scientologists choose to tell me, it's what they do that counts.
Smilla
Ordinary Human
Everybody is different. Some have one head, and some have two. Inside everybody is a little barrel with apples in it and one is always bad. You can't blame that on a barrel, because a barrel isn't even a fruit. And never forget, "an onion a day keeps the jimjams away".
I'm feisty, eh?
I'm feisty, eh?
MissWog
Silver Meritorious Patron
Same here!!
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Smilla
Ordinary Human
Try this Mark
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR-ycnIdaH8[/video]
Bill
Gold Meritorious Patron
Sorry but you are making a strawman argument here. You say "Here are some examples of beliefs that people are entitled to" and then list horrible actions that people have taken or list groups that have done horrible things.
Those are actions and, no, people are not "entitled" to take those actions. Today, in most civilized nations, there are laws that protect people but even where there are no laws, we still don't think people are "entitled" to take those actions.
You didn't address beliefs in any honest way. Yes, beliefs can "have real world consequences" but not necessarily. Beliefs have consequences only if acted upon. But then you are talking about actions, not belief. Belief, by itself, does nothing except, perhaps, damage the person holding the belief.
Bill
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
If, say, I happen to believe in Xenu and BTs, or I happen to believe in demons and Jesus coming back from the dead, that's pretty different from believing I should strangle unway travellers or marry young girls off against their will or kill Sharon Tate or bomb an abortion clinic.
It is true that some of the worst things man has ever done were done in the name of religion. My solution is to look at what the people are doing- and not whether they like bts on their sandwich.
It is true that some of the worst things man has ever done were done in the name of religion. My solution is to look at what the people are doing- and not whether they like bts on their sandwich.
Free Being Me
Crusader
The post I made is a general offering countering the fall back offered on the board that people, in particular Scientologists, are entitled to their own beliefs. The examples listed were beliefs that had horrendous consequences. Evaluating today, what were past beliefs, commonly accepted or declared by fiat during their respective times, gives perspective as to the implications of belief and consequences. Each one of the listed items were a result of accepting that belief, without question. Hence the direction of my post, to examine one's beliefs in conjunction with historical outcomes. Scientology as a belief system has produced the exact opposite of the beliefs stated by LRH.... yet people still believe.
PirateAndBum
Gold Meritorious Patron
oh I dunno Claire, I like bacon tomato and spinach sandwiches.
You can believe you should strangle strangers - fine and dandy. It's when you strangle a stranger that you're in trouble.
Should one try to nip such beliefs in the bud before they are expressed? I think many would say yes, if the belief wasn't in accord with their own beliefs of what is 'right'.
Steve Hall's iScilon site is pure Hubbarian (sounds like barbarian)
After his rant against the FZ and his froth spewing about how he's taking on the job of putting in ethics, blah blah. He's giving a very clear example of why "indies" of his and Marty's kind are a concern. It's quite clear to me they want the Co$ back under "their" control and given the depth of indoc. that is certainly not a happy thought for me.
He should put his marketing talent to better use, like upgrading the popeil pocket fisherman site...
You can believe you should strangle strangers - fine and dandy. It's when you strangle a stranger that you're in trouble.
Should one try to nip such beliefs in the bud before they are expressed? I think many would say yes, if the belief wasn't in accord with their own beliefs of what is 'right'.
Steve Hall's iScilon site is pure Hubbarian (sounds like barbarian)
After his rant against the FZ and his froth spewing about how he's taking on the job of putting in ethics, blah blah. He's giving a very clear example of why "indies" of his and Marty's kind are a concern. It's quite clear to me they want the Co$ back under "their" control and given the depth of indoc. that is certainly not a happy thought for me.
He should put his marketing talent to better use, like upgrading the popeil pocket fisherman site...
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