DM kinda follows our suggestions

ThisFenceHurts

Patron with Honors
I firmly believe that David Miscavige is aware of what is discussed on the internet regarding Scientology. I also firmly believe that a person tends to incorporate everything he hears or sees one way or another, either consciously or unconsciously, into his viewpoint and future action. Well, I say that critic community (probably more accurately the ex-Scn community) has had an impact on his actions over the years. Whether that is a good or bad thing is dependent on your viewpoint. But don't think for a second that we can discuss Scn so passionately, logically, emotionally, in such volume and with such strong intention that we aren't at least partially responsible for the current actions of CoS. And don't think for a minute that DM can possibly operate in a vacuum...no one can. We have a better line into DM than most people in the CoS do.

1 - Many have said for years that there must be an SP in upper management in order for there to be so much trouble with Scn. Of course, many have come to the conclusion that DM is the SP, or that Ron was the original SP. DM has, in fact, apparently been looking for THE SP in management, by setting up the SP Hall and such. (Maybe he is trying desperately to figure out which one is THE BIG ONE a la Mayo, and so he keeps declaring people one by one until things get better, but without actually losing any of the top staff?)

2 - Many have said that Scns these days don't know the subject very well and that it might be due to altered tech. Well, DM has certainly done a version of attempting to handle that by way of re-releasing many items in their "Pure" form, such as the Basics, and the Congress lectures, Classics lectures, etc.

3 - Many have said that a lot of present day Scns don't know much about the early days of Scn, the line of develpment, the fundamentals of Scn. Well, DM has released the Congresses and the Basics and has pushed those pretty hard. IMHO, as stated in another post, this isn't an inherently bad idea. Studying the basic books and listening to the Congresses in chronological order is not a bad way to start going about handling said "stupidity" about Scn tech (again, whether that is even a valuable pursuit is up to the individual).

From what I have seen, the Basics and the Congresses are well-made, more user-friendly (no one can argue that the glossaries are much better than what had been available - and CDs and books on tape make it easier to study anywhere), and actually :ohmy: IMPROVED :ohmy: - for anyone who disagrees, have you actually looked at the new materials?

4 - We talk of rehabilitation, well, DM now has the orgs trying to clean up CF, contacting and trying to salvage lots of ARCX public, some declared SPs, etc. At least the line being given by the staff doing the reaching is usually some sort of salvage/rehab/cleanup message. Maybe it's just for more $$$, maybe it's really an attempt to salvage (maybe it's both? Who says there is only one answer to any given question?)

5 - Some say that the MEST of the orgs was pretty crappy at times (which it was quite often), and that they were disappointed (not everyone has this as an issue, just play along if you don't care about MEST) - well, DM has gotten some nice new buildings...anyone who has been in one of the Ideal Orgs, or some of the newer buildings at Flag can attest to the fact that, even if your taste doesn't run the way of Scns, these places certainly don't exude "crappy, broke, barely surviving cult" anymore.

As far as some of the other things that get complained about, such as OSA's fair game tactics, SO policy, etc...well, those things seem to pre-date DM, so he can't go back and cancel all that, can he? Without rejecting LRH outright? So the "basically good guy" then serfacs that he is "good" because he doesn't get rid of "Ron's policies". Scientology sure allows for a great many opportunities for fantastic serfacs or GPM-type scenarios...

OK, so maybe some of what I am saying sounds ridiculous, but the amount of times that I have seen someone mention something that they felt was out, or referred to a specific reference or tech quote that was then included in the VERY NEXT church promo piece that I saw is astounding.

I say DM is doing a good job - because there are a lot of beings who are far freer now that they have left CoS or Scn in general, and have learned what it means to be free and self-determined. And those who are still in are having their noses pushed in the Basics of Scientology - which, if understood, will probably help even more people see the differences between what is written and what is practiced and/or the insanity of the tech (depending on your viewpoint again). Didn't LRH even speak about a thetan diving into MEST, getting all gunked up, then pulling out to take a look at and evaluate his experiences? And IF Scientology really works, people continue to study it, learn it better, apply it more accurately, and some of this is due to their study of materials as released by DM, then good for him.

Does anyone here really feel that they are now less capable of taking care of themselves after the Scn experience, whether it be because they feel the tech helps, or because they feel that they now can surely spot a scam?

I tend to ramble. I haven't posted much to this board. My points have probably been debated elsewhere ad nauseum. I'm obviously certainly not (yet?) in the "tech-is-crap" camp. And the statements above are not necessarily the dominant viewpoint that I have regarding the items mentioned. But comments are welcome, and the opportunity to communicate is appreciated :)
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I am, pretty much, in the Tech is Crap Camp.

But your points are well taken.

The way I see it, DM has been trying to clean up after LRH in one way or another ever since he got on post in the late 1970's.

His first action after the corporate sort out was to re-issue all the books with new "About the Author" sections so that LRH's fraudulent claims in his bio could not come back and bite them with massive fraud suits.

And he has tried other things earnestly, I believe, to clean up all the turds in the shithouse of Scientology.

The problem is, it's a shithouse.

One day, like most of us, he'll probably cog on that. Even though he was born into it, many others who were born into it have cogged on that, too. So don't give up hope on Davey.

Until then, he can be counted on to act as a Scientologist is commanded to act in the tech and policy of Scientology.

So, earnest or not, he's an idiot. And quite possibly a criminal idiot.

The trials will bear that out.
 

Pascal

Silver Meritorious Patron
DM the unfit

DM is unfit and incompetent. A failed case or a very puny being indeed with his easy access to auditors and top secret LRH archives.

Read about great leaders of the world and you see nothing DM personifies.

Ideal orgs and better materials could have been done by ANY WOG OUTFIT. That is no OT feat.

Scamming St-Hill size orgs out of the Universe Corp and scandals like the Mcphearson incident show how DM is an incompetent fool unable to lead by any other means than by threat, duress and punishment.

He is a menace to the Church, this race and to himself. If I were Ron I'd have zapped him a long time ago. :angry:
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
comment to Alanzo

I am, pretty much, in the Tech is Crap Camp.

But your points are well taken.

The way I see it, DM has been trying to clean up after LRH in one way or another ever since he got on post in the late 1970's.

His first action after the corporate sort out was to re-issue all the books with new "About the Author" sections so that LRH's fraudulent claims in his bio could not come back and bite them with massive fraud suits.

And he has tried other things earnestly, I believe, to clean up all the turds in the shithouse of Scientology.

The problem is, it's a shithouse.

One day, like most of us, he'll probably cog on that. Even though he was born into it, many others who were born into it have cogged on that, too. So don't give up hope on Davey.

Until then, he can be counted on to act as a Scientologist is commanded to act in the tech and policy of Scientology.

So, earnest or not, he's an idiot. And quite possibly a criminal idiot.

The trials will bear that out.


DM is not really an idiot, he is a psychopath. You can find out what that is doing a web search. Robert D. Hare has done a great deal of good research on psychopathy. Everything that dm does is for himself ultimately.
Smitty
 

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
So, earnest or not, he's an idiot. And quite possibly a criminal idiot.

Isn't putting criminal and idiot next to each other a redundancy? Didn't LRH say that criminals aren't all that smart?

And I would label DM a narcissist: extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.
 

Good twin

Floater
Isn't putting criminal and idiot next to each other a redundancy? Didn't LRH say that criminals aren't all that smart?

And I would label DM a narcissist: extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.

Actually I still like the empty hole where the big asshole used to be best.:yes:
 

Pascal

Silver Meritorious Patron
Isn't putting criminal and idiot next to each other a redundancy? Didn't LRH say that criminals aren't all that smart?

And I would label DM a narcissist: extreme selfishness, with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration, as characterizing a personality type.

Yes he reminds me of the dward king in Shrek. He's probably dramatizing a winning valence he saw eons ago since he doesn't have the potential to back his present valence.

Poor boob. I can picture him keying out and begging forgiveness. ha
 

Muhammad

Patron
DM is just a pon to turn the scns and public against the tech. TO say he by himself became head of the church is bullshit.He had lots of help.Why was a lawyer who worked for the IRS as an assistant director given a chair in church corp. structure. For all the love LRH had for the tax man he must pulling his hair out by the roots. THe tech may have not been prefect but thru my observation as an auditor I have seen hundreds of pc life get better with the tech. The only action DM could do that would help scn is to resign,uncopy right the orginal materals and let scn stand or fall on its own merit.
Assalamu alaikum
 

Pascal

Silver Meritorious Patron
DM is just a pon to turn the scns and public against the tech. TO say he by himself became head of the church is bullshit.He had lots of help.Why was a lawyer who worked for the IRS as an assistant director given a chair in church corp. structure. For all the love LRH had for the tax man he must pulling his hair out by the roots. THe tech may have not been prefect but thru my observation as an auditor I have seen hundreds of pc life get better with the tech. The only action DM could do that would help scn is to resign,uncopy right the orginal materals and let scn stand or fall on its own merit.
Assalamu alaikum

The tax man is a special director with no real power. The general directors have real power and are scientologists. The IRS thing is just to make the CoS look pretty and benign. Like cozying up to Christians and other implant religions. The true aim of the CoS and KSW is total control of Earth and eradication of anything that is not LRH tech. No doubt.

walaykum salami
 

DartSmohen

Silver Meritorious Patron
DM is not really an idiot, he is a psychopath. You can find out what that is doing a web search. Robert D. Hare has done a great deal of good research on psychopathy. Everything that dm does is for himself ultimately.
Smitty

What motivates person more than anything else is FEAR. DM is a very frightened little man.

He is operating way out of his comfort zone, as evidenced by his paranoia and psychotic behavour.

We saw the same thing, but to a lesser degree in the UK. The Financial Police attracted a certain type of person; somewhat sub-intelligent, working class background, limited outlook on life and easily led and moulded.

They wore black shirts - very much like the Mosley Fascists before the war. They behaved very much the same way in that sort of identity.

DM was a young, ill-educated and impressionable person. His diminuitive physical stature would certainly have added to his motivation. Hubbard thrust on him authority and power far beyond his capability to assimilate and control.

What you ended up with was a firework being thrown into a box of fireworks.

I would imagine DM is a very frightened and lonely person. He cannot extend trust to ayone, cannot effectively delegate power or allow another to express a point of view that does not fit exactly with his own very narrow focus. He is incapable of reason and only feels comfortable around those over whom he has command value. These people eat at his table and depend on his whim for their survival.

They will harbour a simmering hatred of DM, waiting for the moment to lash out and return all the abuse and humiliation that they have endured.

Seeing their friends being locked up, demoted, assigned to the RPF keeps them from speaking out; it is their own survival that motivates them. They are a very unhappy lot, continually compromising their own integrity in order to avoid being the next to fall.

Right now, the COS is a very unhappy place to be. Pressure from above to produce income and stats, threats if one fails to achieve unreachable targets, a downturn in the number of people arriving foer services and to top it all. large demonstrations outside the orgs, banners displaying accusations that most of the staff are unaware of, only to be told by a Goebbels-like PR that it is all lies.

One of the great PR lies told at public events was how well the orgs were doing in another country.

In ANZO you were told how well things were going in Europe. In Europe, how well it was all going in S. Africa, in S. Africa how well the UK was doing, in the UK how great things were in the USA. BUT, never how well things were doing where you were. Your org may look like a shithole and pretty empty, well that is how they are everywhere else.

Hubbard fucked up pretty badly when he established Flag. Immediately there was a monumental by-pass of every mission, org and St Hill. An instant Danger condition ensued. All because of the cult's obsession with income.

Well, there you have it. A clusterfuck of olympic proportions. We do not need to target the COS as a body, but to address our attention to the individuals. As they continue to leave in droves, so the demise of the cult will hasten.

Funnily enough, DM is our biggest asset in their downfall, just as Hitler was in WW2.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I would imagine DM is a very frightened and lonely person. He cannot extend trust to ayone, cannot effectively delegate power or allow another to express a point of view that does not fit exactly with his own very narrow focus. He is incapable of reason and only feels comfortable around those over whom he has command value. These people eat at his table and depend on his whim for their survival.

Just as an aside; how does this differ from Ron? Is there a diference?
My impression would be that Ron was more creative than Davey, but, what you list above sounds spot on.

Maybe the difference is charisma. Davey doesn't have it.

Zinj
 

DartSmohen

Silver Meritorious Patron
Just as an aside; how does this differ from Ron? Is there a diference?
My impression would be that Ron was more creative than Davey, but, what you list above sounds spot on.

Maybe the difference is charisma. Davey doesn't have it.

Zinj


Exactly so. Hubbard was a great showman. He had enormous charisma and could command attention wherever he went, just by being there. He was received with spontaneous warmth and affection.

DM, on the other hand............:bigcry:
 

Escalus

Patron Meritorious
1 - Many have said for years that there must be an SP in upper management in order for there to be so much trouble with Scn. Of course, many have come to the conclusion that DM is the SP, or that Ron was the original SP. DM has, in fact, apparently been looking for THE SP in management, by setting up the SP Hall and such. (Maybe he is trying desperately to figure out which one is THE BIG ONE a la Mayo, and so he keeps declaring people one by one until things get better, but without actually losing any of the top staff?)

Since there's no such thing as an SP it doesn't make any sense to call anybody one. But it is kind of a funny picture to try and see Miscavige looking for one. I'd rather have him do that than reform his "church" because that will just help it crumble faster.

2 - Many have said that Scns these days don't know the subject very well and that it might be due to altered tech. Well, DM has certainly done a version of attempting to handle that by way of re-releasing many items in their "Pure" form, such as the Basics, and the Congress lectures, Classics lectures, etc.

What people sometimes fail to see, though, is that one of the reasons things may be being changed around is that the old stuff didn't do what it said it would do, and there are starting to be a lot of people who crossed the Bridge only to find themselves on the same side of the river they started on. So no amount of changing it is going to fix anything. But if he wants to waste time trying, that's good. Gives him less time to stop the "church" from crumbling.

3 - Many have said that a lot of present day Scns don't know much about the early days of Scn, the line of develpment, the fundamentals of Scn. Well, DM has released the Congresses and the Basics and has pushed those pretty hard. IMHO, as stated in another post, this isn't an inherently bad idea. Studying the basic books and listening to the Congresses in chronological order is not a bad way to start going about handling said "stupidity" about Scn tech (again, whether that is even a valuable pursuit is up to the individual).

From what I have seen, the Basics and the Congresses are well-made, more user-friendly (no one can argue that the glossaries are much better than what had been available - and CDs and books on tape make it easier to study anywhere), and actually :ohmy: IMPROVED :ohmy: - for anyone who disagrees, have you actually looked at the new materials?

I'm all for it. It gets people distracted from the crumbling noises all around them. And since they're chasing an invisible rabbit down a phony hole it helps the process.

4 - We talk of rehabilitation, well, DM now has the orgs trying to clean up CF, contacting and trying to salvage lots of ARCX public, some declared SPs, etc. At least the line being given by the staff doing the reaching is usually some sort of salvage/rehab/cleanup message. Maybe it's just for more $$$, maybe it's really an attempt to salvage (maybe it's both? Who says there is only one answer to any given question?)

I'm here, helping Enturb and supporting Anonymous, because of that effort to get me back on their scam list. So I guess he did one thing right after all!

5 - Some say that the MEST of the orgs was pretty crappy at times (which it was quite often), and that they were disappointed (not everyone has this as an issue, just play along if you don't care about MEST) - well, DM has gotten some nice new buildings...anyone who has been in one of the Ideal Orgs, or some of the newer buildings at Flag can attest to the fact that, even if your taste doesn't run the way of Scns, these places certainly don't exude "crappy, broke, barely surviving cult" anymore.

You mean the buildings were dirty and now they aren't but just took longer to say it. Any money spent and unrecoverable is a good idea. It will help the "church" run out of resources faster so it can crumble faster.

As far as some of the other things that get complained about, such as OSA's fair game tactics, SO policy, etc...well, those things seem to pre-date DM, so he can't go back and cancel all that, can he? Without rejecting LRH outright? So the "basically good guy" then serfacs that he is "good" because he doesn't get rid of "Ron's policies". Scientology sure allows for a great many opportunities for fantastic serfacs or GPM-type scenarios...

If he can change the "tech" he can do anything he wants. In the "old days" anybody thinking of changing A WORD of it would have been strung up to die. He can change anything he wants, and the fact that they're continuing the old tactics from the GO days is proof they can't adapt, are incredibly numb to the idea of true public relations and are helping everything to crumble faster.

OK, so maybe some of what I am saying sounds ridiculous, but the amount of times that I have seen someone mention something that they felt was out, or referred to a specific reference or tech quote that was then included in the VERY NEXT church promo piece that I saw is astounding.

I see the same style promos I saw in the 70's. Inept and out of touch.


I say DM is doing a good job - because there are a lot of beings who are far freer now that they have left CoS or Scn in general, and have learned what it means to be free and self-determined. And those who are still in are having their noses pushed in the Basics of Scientology - which, if understood, will probably help even more people see the differences between what is written and what is practiced and/or the insanity of the tech (depending on your viewpoint again). Didn't LRH even speak about a thetan diving into MEST, getting all gunked up, then pulling out to take a look at and evaluate his experiences? And IF Scientology really works, people continue to study it, learn it better, apply it more accurately, and some of this is due to their study of materials as released by DM, then good for him.

We've never met, but I have to say you scare me a little. Miscavige is a sociopath pushing snake oil. The only good thing he's done is get people to wake up faster than they would have regularly. If the end result of this effort out here is a reformed "church" still standing, I'm going to be very disappointed.


Does anyone here really feel that they are now less capable of taking care of themselves after the Scn experience, whether it be because they feel the tech helps, or because they feel that they now can surely spot a scam?

I'm out 33 years. I wish I hadn't wasted my time on this bullshit. So I'm making amends.

I tend to ramble. I haven't posted much to this board. My points have probably been debated elsewhere ad nauseum. I'm obviously certainly not (yet?) in the "tech-is-crap" camp. And the statements above are not necessarily the dominant viewpoint that I have regarding the items mentioned. But comments are welcome, and the opportunity to communicate is appreciated :)

It's an interesting subject well written. But you should write what ARE the dominant viewpoint you hold. It's OK to do that.
 

Neo

Silver Meritorious Patron
Didn't LRH even speak about a thetan diving into MEST, getting all gunked up, then pulling out to take a look at and evaluate his experiences?

Theta Mest Theory, SOS

And IF Scientology really works, people continue to study it, learn it better, apply it more accurately, and some of this is due to their study of materials as released by DM, then good for him.

This is what I thought, too. Then I realised how many lies there were regarding Scientology, which makes it very hard to read any of it now.

Does anyone here really feel that they are now less capable of taking care of themselves after the Scn experience, whether it be because they feel the tech helps, or because they feel that they now can surely spot a scam?

More capable, sure. Because I learnt the anatomy of a trap, and got myself out of it.

:yes:
 

OHTEEATE

Silver Meritorious Patron
In 34 years , Out 3 years

Your thread is well thought out. I appreciate what you are saying. I have some reservations still myself, enough that I do not talk about confidential materials with people. I trained up to Class IV as well as doing OT 8 and all three L rundowns, as well as massive hours of FPRD. Your point on case gain is well taken. It is very easy to get used to negative gain, and forget how much crap you got rid of.
If DM is aware of what is discussed, he has read my repetitive rants here and elsewhere. I never saw him hit anyone, but I was not Int staff. I went there once to get a tour as I was going to do some construction supervision. I'm glad I did not get the job. I know he is out ethics, per policy. Executives who allow waste and exravagance are out-ethics. The LRH mansion, Bonnie View, is waste and extravagance. So is Trementina, Petrolia, Tuolomne, Crestline. How many executive retreats do you need? Is your body that important if there is a disaster?
There are no secrets. As long as people blow off regularly, what is done WILL be reported. A lie may buy you a little time. Eventually you wind up dead, or in jail, or living in seclusion with servants to keep you isolated and protected, as LRH did at his end. None of these are really living.
In short, I think Scn should be allowed to exist, and encouraged to reform. I cannot see throwing the whole thing in the dustbin of history. That is because on OT 8 I did get a glimpse of something worth going after. It's just that in its present form, it's too hard to get there, and too many people get trampled in the process.
 
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alex

Gold Meritorious Patron
Your thread is well thought out. I appreciate what you are saying. I have some reservations still myself, enough that I do not talk about confidential materials with people. I trained up to Class IV as well as doing OT 8 and all three L rundowns, as well as massive hours of FPRD. Your point on case gain is well taken. It is very easy to get used to negative gain, and forget how much crap you got rid of.
If DM is aware of what is discussed, he has read my repetitive rants here and elsewhere. I never saw him hit anyone, but I was not Int staff. I went there once to get a tour as I was going to do some construction supervision. I'm glad I did not get the job. I know he is out ethics, per policy. Executives who allow waste and exravagance are out-ethics. The LRH mansion, Bonnie View, is waste and extravagance. So is Trementina, Petrolia, Tuolomne, Crestline. How many executive retreats do you need? Is your body that important if there is a disaster?
There are no secrets. As long as people blow off regularly, what is done WILL be reported. A lie may buy you a little time. Eventually you wind up dead, or in jail, or living in seclusion with servants to keep you isolated and protected, as LRH did at his end. None of these are really living.
In short, I think Scn should be allowed to exist, and encouraged to reform. I cannot see throwing the whole thing in the dustbin of history. That is because on OT 8 I did get a glimpse of something worth going after. It's just that in its present form, it's too hard to get there, and too many people get trampled in the process.

Care to comment on your reference to "something worth going after" ?

I am truly curious about your viewpoint.

PM would be cool...

alex
 

Wisened One

Crusader
In short, I think Scn should be allowed to exist, and encouraged to reform. I cannot see throwing the whole thing in the dustbin of history.
That is because on OT 8 I did get a glimpse of something worth going after.

It's just that in its present form, it's too hard to get there, and too many people get trampled in the process.

Mmmm, VERY well put, Ohteeate!

And I personally would love to hear what you got out of OT VIII:)...please elaborate on this 'glimpse of something worth going after'.

PM me if you'd rather.
 

Pascal

Silver Meritorious Patron
Just as an aside; how does this differ from Ron? Is there a diference?
My impression would be that Ron was more creative than Davey, but, what you list above sounds spot on.

Maybe the difference is charisma. Davey doesn't have it.

Zinj

Actually DM has anti-charisma. He gives SCN and the Church a bad name. He's no product of Scientology and my afghan hound has more presence than him.
 

Veda

Sponsor
If the slave bracelets can be loosened slightly, so that they no longer chafe, will the carrot on the stick dangle, looking as juicy as ever?, and will the Hubbard-designed Psychological-political operation, with its moving parts newly oiled and ready to go, roll along at a perky pace?

Can $cientology go from being a dysfunctional mental-healing-coated Destructive Cult, to a more smoothly functional mental-healing-coated Destructive Cult?

Hubbard used his "Reform Code"-angle in 1968, after which $cientology's money-IN, and abuses-committed, soared. Only the FBI raids, of almost a decade later, unearthed some of the abuses by its Fair game-applying, Hubbard-directed, Guardians Office.

The Internet changed things, but much is still hidden, and much abuse occurs that is never broadcast on the Internet.

Will Miscavige - or ? - try a similar approach as Hubbard's bogus "Reform Code"? It "worked" before, and now $cientology, as dirty as ever, has tax exemption in the USA.

How many would be willing to go back, to be re-bled of their energies and treasure?

How juicy does that LRH-Source carrot seem right now?

Would the release of OT 9 make you salivate?

Yummy!
 
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