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Alanzo Apologism 101: Does Anti-Scientology Deserve Any Criticism?

Discussion in 'Life After Scientology' started by Alanzo, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    as far as I'm concerned Hubbard never read Lifton, so I can't say he used those principles or teachings of Lifton, nor can I say he read them and applied those principles.

    I have found no evidence Hubbard read Lifton or used his principles,

    I myself do not refer to Lifton as the bible of the anticult movement.
     
  2. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I was not aware that I was a member either, when I first started to think about it.

    Read this article. I'll bet you can find yourself and your friends in it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-cult_movement
     
  3. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    are you kidding me Pineapple it begins as persuasion, with a very light touch, it always has been persuasion and to the end.

    The Hubbard said he was coming back, LOL

    There are no clears, or OT''s or coming back. Sorry to rain on everybodies parade, but the Hubbard is full of shit.
     
  4. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    not me, the anticult movement is about a new religion.

    The religion of sientology is supposed to produce a clear and OT.

    Are you clear and OT?

    If you are, then I'll join.
     
  5. Emma

    Emma Con te partirò Administrator

    If only you were in my shoes....there was a movement. A lot of it co-ordinated to swing opinion. It worked pretty well too. I was involved and regret it very much.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  6. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Let's have a poll here:

    Who here is a current member of the Anti-cult belief system movement and needs to hear a lecture by Alanzo?

    Seriously. What evidence do you have that ANYONE here is a member of your Anti-Cult Movement Belief System? Why do you think so?

    Before we go further down this rabbit hole, let's find out if your mind-reading assumptions are true.
     
    Enthetan, Type4_PTS, Aerial and 2 others like this.
  7. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    not me, never heard about it.

    Am I missing something so profound? LOL
     
  8. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    Why didn't the brainwashing defense work in any of the above cases? Because juries generally don't like the "insanity defense" or its equivalent. They take the (reasonable) attitude that "you did it, so you're guilty."

    I don't blame "brainwashing" or whatever you want to call it for my initial involvement in scn. I got in on my own determinism while the coercion was still at the mild persuasion, "take it or leave it" stage. No one held a gun to my head.

    "Brainwashing" is a slang, non-scientific term, but I'd say the following definition is a good one.
    brainwashing def.png
    Scientology certainly does this, wouldn't you say?
     
    Type4_PTS likes this.
  9. pineapple

    pineapple Silver Meritorious Patron

    I agree that language is important. "Coercion" and "manipulation" are good terms, IMHO. But I think we need to beware of a redefinition of terms, and of replacing commonly used terms like "brainwashing" with milder ones that make scn seem less insidious than it is.

    It seems to me that where Alanzo is going with all his arguments is to paint scn as a poor little misunderstood "minority religion" that we should stop being so nasty to. He wants to turn the tables and say WE are the cult, not scn.
     
    TheOriginalBigBlue likes this.
  10. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Does Anti-Scientology Deserve Any Criticism?

    In general, NO.

    However, a few individuals might try to use it to get money.
    And, protestant Scientologists don't like much criticism of "the tech".

    This is similar to when Christian apologists say that science is just another religion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
    tesseract and Emma like this.
  11. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    One of the definitions of 'movement' is:
    "a group of people working together to advance their shared political, social, or artistic ideas."

    Is that what you mean by it?

    Even if that is true, people working together to advance their ideas in not inherently a bad thing. It could be good or bad, depending on the quality of the ideas they wish to advance.

    In my case, my opinion about Scientology was formed over many years, doing extensive reading on the subject, both here on ESMB and elsewhere.
    But in my 10 years I've been here on ESMB no one (including yourself) has tried to influence my opinion backchannel, to persuade me to accept parts of this belief system Alanzo keeps harping about.

    There's been times that I've sensed that the majority of posters here share certain opinions in common and sometimes I agreed with the majority and other times not. But that is true on any forum, isn't it?
     
  12. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    No.

    I was on an American Civil War forum that had every possible view on it.

    You can imagine all the highly emotional themes running through that - families destroyed, slavery, racism, war and murder.

    Every possible view on the American Civil war was represented there.

    The forum was very well moderated. You found out quickly that if you broke the rules, your post was gone - no explanation, no apologies. If you wanted to be part of the discussion, you simply had to follow the rules. Participants learned very quickly, and simply followed the rules.

    I wouldn't say the uniformity of thought and conformity of belief that is now ESMB ONLY occurs in the discussion of Scientology. And even in the discussion of Scientology, there have been many fora where every possible viewpoint was allowed. ARS for instance. And now the open Facebook group SCIENTOLOGY DEPROGRAMMING.

    Really, in the discussion of Scientology, this kind of uniform groupthink MAINLY occurs where Mike Rinder & Karen De La Carriere, and their surrogates, are in control of the board. That is where I saw this strange anti-free speech trend in the discussion of Scientology first emerge - with the emergence of Marty, Mike and Karen back in 2009/2010.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  13. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    And where can one find the 'beliefs' of this 'Anti Cult Belief System' that members are supposed to adhere to? Serious question.
     
  14. Emma

    Emma Con te partirò Administrator

    Yes.
    This isn't about Alanzo.

    I'll give you an example. In 2013 there was a theory floating around that Marty & Mike were going to try to oust DM and take over the CoS. Remember? This was also around the time Monique Rathbun filed her lawsuit against the CoS.

    This theory split the board into two camps. The "Marty rah rah" camp and the "Marty still sucks" camp. The "Marty still sucks" camp was primarily Veda, with some help from Caroline Letkemen (Gerry Armstrong's wife). Both had good reason to suspect Marty of not being honest.

    Although Veda's voice was just one dissenter in hundreds of others, he needed to be shut up.

    How was this handled? A certain person in the Indi camp was contacting me all the time, feeding me black PR on Veda and Caroline, crying persecution etc. Because this person was now seen as "important" (thanks in part to me promoting this person) and was financially contributing the the cost of the board, I was easily able to be influenced, and my opinion about these dissenting posters was affected.

    Below are some posts from Veda at the time.
    Yes it is and was. I knew that and I used that.
    I'm sorry Veda. I have disappointed myself.
    Yes. Again I'm sorry.
    You were right about certain aspects of this all along.

    If anyone wants to get a fuller understanding, read the whole thread. BTW this is just one thread. This theme can be seen along multiple threads running at that time.

    Was Veda right about Marty? You decide. However he was howled down at the time for having the "wrong" opinion. His dissent was not allowed to stand. Maybe you can understand now why I'm allowing dissent. Hindsight is 20/20 but what about the present? Shouldn't we be exposed to all possibilities and questions? Or do we just apologise later to the people we trampled on because they disagreed at the time, and obliterated them in the process.
    Yes it is.

    I suppose I'm in a unique position and it's probably difficult for anyone to understand what I've witnessed over the last 12 years. Nobody has been in my position except me. No one else had been arrested and had a threat of 10 years prison hanging over their head. No other forum has been as successful as ESMB which at times, had 500 new posts a day. Nobody else has experienced the position of being an unwilling opinion leader with the influence to change minds, but at the same time, being unfamiliar with dealing with manipulation. I was manipulated in the CoS, but this was different, much more subtle.

    I have been manipulated, mainly by money. I hated doing the fundraisers. It was just so much easier to have 2 or 3 members contribute large amounts each year. Each year fewer and fewer members actually chipped in, and so having 2 members basically cover it each year was a blessing & a curse. The trade off was that I wasn't allowed to moderate one poster, no matter how offensive or nasty the post, and I wasn't allowed to let any criticism stand against the other. I think that has been proven out in the last week.

    I moderated and I criticised.

    A lot of this stuff has only become clear to me in my own mind over the last few weeks. I believe a theory floating around is that Alanzo hypnotised me. I wish this was true. If he was that good at it I would have hired him to help me stick to a diet. What opened my eyes to this was me deciding to close ESMB. With that decision all the "must do's and mustn't do's" kind of shattered and I could see clearly for the first time that I had allowed myself to be controlled.

    I'm not saying any of this was malicious. People have agendas. We all do.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  15. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Who was the "important Indi"?
     
  16. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I remember I 'floated' the idea once that Karen paid the bills here at ESMB.

    You responded by saying that, in fact, I paid more money to ESMB than Karen ever did.

    Was that true?
     
  17. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    All this is a real eye-opener to someone like me who is a relative noob. It certainly helps me get things in perspective, knowing a little of the back story to all this intrigue.

    About the board. I maintain a server, and although there's oceans of space, all I have on it are a few of my tunes and a sort of record of my experiences in the music industry. I pay for it myself.

    I've chipped in a little to keep ESMB on the road in the past, and if it was threatened with closure through lack of funds I'm sure people would gladly stick their hands in their pockets - or at least I hope they would. I don't see why you need to dislike fund-raising for the board so much, we don't think you're father christmas and we all know there's no such thing as a free lunch.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
    TheOriginalBigBlue likes this.
  18. Emma

    Emma Con te partirò Administrator

    Nope. I lied.
     
  19. Little David

    Little David Gold Meritorious Patron

    This is a very insightful and honorable post.

    When I started posting on OCMB and then here on ESMB a certain "VIP" poster tried to help me learn how to post in the "correct" way by sending me flattering and "corrective" pm's. I've since learned they were equally generous in sharing time from their hectic schedule with other newbies.
     
  20. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Who is this "VIP"?

    Why will no one speak the name?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019