Does anyone here believe that L. Ron Hubbard was sane?

[Commander Birdsong]

SNOW WHITE WASN"T A CRIME GODDAMMIT!!!!!!

a bunch of americans infiltrating the united states government is only a crime if you're a scumbag who wants to keep government away from americans

what they done to paullette was a crime

there's a looooooooong list of real crimes

but i'm tickled pink about snow white

after meissner turned state's evidence the jackbooted thugs at IRS were forced to clean up their act. there was no observable connection, same as there was no public linkage between the rooskies taking the missles out of cuba and our removal of the jupiters from turkey but that IRS reform was brought about by snow white

in fact scientologists and it's students have done many heroic things over the decades and many good things have been secondary growth over hubbard's work. tremendous amount of reform in mental health and dianeticists have been spearheading it since 1950

but i'll be damned if i'll work for the moneygrubbing jerks

 

[Andtheyalllived]

in fact scientologists and it's students have done many heroic things over the decades and many good things have been secondary growth over hubbard's work. tremendous amount of reform in mental health and dianeticists have been spearheading it since 1950

Ok, I'll bite: Docs?

 

[suncat]

Excuse me, was that 75 million or billion years, that?



A planet named coitus? I think it's time to stop and say no to prenatal engrams, everyone. If nothing else, LRH has prooved by example how destructive that is!

You have to put a limit between reality and fantasy, and if you can't, your crazy! This is the craziest person I have ever heard, for sure!

This guy is clearly babbling about things anyone would call fantasies. But the effect of doing this with complete self-confidence is extremely entertaining. I have listened very entertained many hours to him, just for the little thrills and chills to that end.

He is someone *helping* others. It is therefore very difficult to call him crazy and mean it in a bad way. The whole subject of self-improvement begins with accepting faults, and this gives him to me a

I am -- after three years on staff without pay or even a thank you, and a following depression -- forcing my self to say that he was indeed crazy. And that I must not allow myself to think otherwise, just for the kicks it gives me. When listening to this Xemu stuff I now laugh *at* it and not *with* it ... and it actually much more fun!

If he was indeed a WW2 veteran that was unable to walk, and healed himself, it is fair to estimate some permanent damages he never got rid of. It is in fact fair to believe the sufferings of the war made him crazy enough to try to "save the world", and perhaps make him feel that normal, civic life of the millions mattered little, just as Hitler did after WW1, and that he - after the sufferings he went through - would be more or less entitled to sail as pirate in the waters of after-war - after all he was "doing good". What would it matter, really, compared to a world war? He says "they had it rigged".. "they blew them to hell"... it all fits easily into a personal war-catastrophy.

The truth is that its crazy to do that much therapy voluntarily! It's not *fun* *creative* *social* *physically challenging* or anything at all, really... The sane thing to do is to step back and say "no thanks!" to Dianetics. When you don't, you enter the land in-between. It may be just your secret, but it's still true that you are doing something half-crazy compared to any standard.

Thanks every one here before me for this great forum. Hope anyone will see this. I'm from Sweden.

 

[In present time]

what they done to paullette was a crime

there's a looooooooong list of real crimes

but i'm tickled pink about snow white

after meissner turned state's evidence the jackbooted thugs at IRS were forced to clean up their act. there was no observable connection, same as there was no public linkage between the rooskies taking the missles out of cuba and our removal of the jupiters from turkey but that IRS reform was brought about by snow white

in fact scientologists and it's students have done many heroic things over the decades and many good things have been secondary growth over hubbard's work. tremendous amount of reform in mental health and dianeticists have been spearheading it since 1950

but i'll be damned if i'll work for the moneygrubbing jerks

There-in lies the rub. But the sale of "I already hate the next president" bumper stickers during the election was good. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Ok, I'll bite: Docs?

I don't know that Birdie had this in mind, nor would I expect that Sarge would thank me for referencing his work in this matter, but I think this does, strictly speaking, fill the bill.

I do recommend reading it. It is an excellent book. And unlike DMSMH the procedures described work to do what it says they will.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Andtheyalllived]

I don't know that Birdie had this in mind, nor would I expect that Sarge would thank me for referencing his work in this matter, but I think this does, strictly speaking, fill the bill.

I do recommend reading it. It is an excellent book. And unlike DMSMH the procedures described work to do what it says they will.

Sarge's credentials are indeed impressive. Too much so in that they led some people down the rabbit hole... People whose natural skepticism might have stopped them at the front door, were they not impressed by his title and his apparent success.

But he, and the book, hardly fill the bill you itemized below. I understood you to say that scientologists have built on Hubbard's work to reform the field of mental health. Reforming mental health would require that the scholars, the industry or the general public take it seriously.

Originally Posted by Commander Birdsong in fact scientologists and it's students have done many heroic things over the decades and many good things have been secondary growth over hubbard's work. tremendous amount of reform in mental health and dianeticists have been spearheading it since 1950

 

[Xenu's Boyfriend]

I actually think this question has merit, because when I watched "The Master" (which isn't necessarily factually true to Hubbard, but, I feel, is spiritually true, which may be more important), I got the sense that this is a man who could be quite lucid and deeply charismatic, even through his illness.

My sense, and there is probably no way to prove this, is that LRH had "disturbances" that became worse over time. Wright writes in "Going Clear" that at one point Hubbard asked for psychological help soon after he left the military and for whatever reason it was deferred or denied, but he never got it. He knew something was wrong.

I believe that the "progression" of Scientology from Dianetics and the Communication Course to the advanced OT levels is a great way of tracking LRH's mental illness through the years. Hubbard's genius is that he created a step-by-step, methodical window into his own mental health, what he aspired to heal in himself and failed. If you go up the bridge, you too can have the same paranoid schizophrenic psychotic break that I believe he eventually had -all the way to flipping out at OT III and above because millions of creatures are inhabiting space within your body - which is a fascinating metaphor for a fractured personality.

People need to be reminded, especially in the independence movement, how violent Ron could be. I remember it shocked me reading Wright's book the violence LRH was capable of, particularly against women.

The reason why Scientology will never stand beside any serious form of transformational therapy (no matter how much Marty Rathbun and others try to force it) is because Scientology requires too much coercion to be effective. Scientology is marked by violence and morbidity, the antithesis of healing.

I loved The Master because in those scenes where someone disagreed with the teachings, Joaquin Phoenix would just beat the shit out of them. I feel like he and Phillip Seymour Hoffman represented two parts of LRH's psyche.

David Miscavige is a crud little thug, a lunchroom bully...but it LRH who had enough brilliance to be the architect of an entire movement that still exists today. And I don't admire him. My only point is that I believe there was a gradual disintegration of an already precarious psychological state, so the question is more complicated than yes and no.

I have to say, I reread my post and I'm a little embarrassed that I used the words brilliance, genius and L. Ron Hubbard in the same post. I don't know what the man was, but I don't feel comfortable calling him any of those things. I have more to say on that, but it is interesting how persuasive his defenders can be - even when you think you aren't drinking the kool-aid, you still end up thinking, "Maybe he knew something the rest of us didn't." Well, not anymore. I don't mean to contradict myself, but I think the man was deeply, deeply sick, and from a very early age.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I have to say, I reread my post and I'm a little embarrassed that I used the words brilliance, genius and L. Ron Hubbard in the same post. ...

Well, some measure of it may not be wholly inappropriate. If it makes you feel better, the word genius is derived from what the latin people regarded as guiding spirit which helped form the unique character or quality of a person, place, or thing. It did not necessarily reflect intelligence, nor was the quality referred to invariably viewed as "positive". Accordingly, it is quite easy to see l. ron hubbard as having possessed a certain sort of genius, albeit one you wouldn't wish on a friend.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Ok, I'll bite: Docs?

mostly nurses

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

...

I see this thread is still going strong. . .

I am wondering what level of proof of insanity (beyond catatonia cum drooling) would be necessary for some people to understand that Hubbard was stark staring mad? Let's see. . .

* Chronic & Incorrigible Lying.
* Acute Paranoia.
* Narcissistic Personality Disorder
* Decades of criminality & fraud.
* Serious/serial felonious attacks upon innocent persons.
* Stalking & terrorism.
* Megalomania.
* Delusional Schizophrenia.
* Writing & performing the song "Thank You For Listening". lol​

 

[In present time]

...

I see this thread is still going strong. . .

I am wondering what level of proof of insanity (beyond catatonia cum drooling) would be necessary for some people to understand that Hubbard was stark staring mad? Let's see. . .

* Chronic & Incorrigible Lying.
* Acute Paranoia.
* Narcissistic Personality Disorder
* Decades of criminality & fraud.
* Serious/serial felonious attacks upon innocent persons.
* Stalking & terrorism.
* Megalomania.
* Delusional Schizophrenia.
* Writing & performing the song "Thank You For Listening". lol​

I am just going to plop this link here, (to avoid responsibility for a new thread) Ron had an insanity that kept on giving;http://groundzero.fm/?p=episode&name=2013-03-26_20130325_groundzero.mp3observe at the one hour fifty five mark "Sean" from Florida called to set Clyde straight that scn. is a new religion and not a cult. Wow, Sean, good luck on getting out of that lower condition you were assigned.

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

...

I see this thread is still going strong. . .

I am wondering what level of proof of insanity (beyond catatonia cum drooling) would be necessary for some people to understand that Hubbard was stark staring mad? Let's see. . .

* Chronic & Incorrigible Lying.
* Acute Paranoia.
* Narcissistic Personality Disorder
* Decades of criminality & fraud.
* Serious/serial felonious attacks upon innocent persons.
* Stalking & terrorism.
* Megalomania.
* Delusional Schizophrenia.
* Writing & performing the song "Thank You For Listening". lol​

I think he was mad as a hatter, but he was very brave too! - Singing 'Thank You For Listening' when it was all too likely that someone would have shot him or strangled him.. Or both.. That took courage!

edit: He was MADDER than a hatter!

 

[smartone]

I always hated listening to his tapes while I was on course. He used to go on and on and on and go all around the houses talking about this and that.

I used to feel like shouting FER CHRISSAKE GET TO THE POINT! Of course, there never was one.

 

[uncover]

I don´t care if he was intelligent or not - many sociopaths may be intelligent - but here El Con Hubbard himself writes about his value for mankind:

The potential value of an individual or a group may be expressed by the equation:

(PV = ID) where I is Intelligence and D is Dynamic.

The worth of an individual is computed in terms of the alignment, on any dynamic, of his potential value with optimum survival along that dynamic. A high PV may, by reversed vector, result in a negative worth as in some severely aberrated persons.

From El Con Hubbard in "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, Chapter V"

 

[Claire Swazey]

I always hated listening to his tapes while I was on course. He used to go on and on and on and go all around the houses talking about this and that.

I used to feel like shouting FER CHRISSAKE GET TO THE POINT! Of course, there never was one.

I didn't hate it, but I'll tell ya what- I found having to look up all those words about sailing and photography to be a total fucking waste of time. So that aspect annoyed me greatly.

I do get the study tech thing. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all of study techniques or that it's superior. It's not but I think it's mostly ok and has some salutory effects. But the slavish looking up every single word that you aren't 100% sure of-- see, I just don't think that's necessary and study tech is predicated on the idea that it IS.

You know how they always talk about not being robotic, don't take tests for the test itself, don't be rote? Well, IMO, with their insistence on no comm lag, it conditions the student to rattle stuff off and spit things out fast and I think a pretty good case could be made to call THAT robotic and rote.

Lame!

 

[Claire Swazey]

Hubbard was selfish. If you read Dianetics In Limbo, which depicts events from 1951/1952- he was selfish and unreasonable then. Plus we know he lied about his war record, and that was early on.

I do not personally think he was a sociopath but then again, I also believe there are degrees of sociopathy, or, if you prefer, SPness. Not everyone would agree with me. (but hey, I have a reputation as "Ron's cheerleader" who wants to lead you all into cultdumb to uphold, now don't I.)

I think with this guy, YMMV. This is why, as I've mentioned a time or two or three hundred, I look at what's written, what the ideas are and if I can use 'em or not. And with that, my POV has shifted a lot over the past several years. Still, it is highly unlikely that I will ever ditch all of it. I've no need to do so.

 

[Moosejewels]

I didn't hate it, but I'll tell ya what- I found having to look up all those words about sailing and photography to be a total fucking waste of time. So that aspect annoyed me greatly.

I do get the study tech thing. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all of study techniques or that it's superior. It's not but I think it's mostly ok and has some salutory effects. But the slavish looking up every single word that you aren't 100% sure of-- see, I just don't think that's necessary and study tech is predicated on the idea that it IS.

You know how they always talk about not being robotic, don't take tests for the test itself, don't be rote? Well, IMO, with their insistence on no comm lag, it conditions the student to rattle stuff off and spit things out fast and I think a pretty good case could be made to call THAT robotic and rote.

Lame!

______________________________________

I slavishly looked up and followed chains of words (definitions, and words in definitions) to a ludicrous degree when in the academy. At the time I would not have dared to question the effectiveness of this method. And it was effective, TO A DEGREE. But there were times when I feel this method was making me absolutely mind numbing crazy. But I'll tell you what, the thing that bothered me most was watching others, whom I considered not real bright (that's my arrogant self), "glibly" blowing through the materials and creating those phenominal stats. They were being pushed through for statistical reasons while totally not doing the work as per policy. But, that was a long time ago.

 

[Alle G]

I sooo don’t understand word clearing. Hubbard insists on it so fiercely. Most people agree (in other threads too) that no harm comes from it, that it is good to look things up in a dictionary.

But would Hubbard promote a ’good thing’ if it did not serve some of his purposes? That is, is there agenda behind word clearing? Is it to mask that discussion and debating are forbidden?

He says that if during studying you become bored, go back and find a misunderstood word. I would think the opposite is true, nothing is so boring as word clearing when you are forced to do it. It somehow disrupts my thinking process.

(I did not do word clearing Hubbard style, but I spent a lot of time looking through dictionaries because English is not my native language).

 

[Claire Swazey]

I sooo don’t understand word clearing. Hubbard insists on it so fiercely. Most people agree (in other threads too) that no harm comes from it, that it is good to look things up in a dictionary.

But would Hubbard promote a ’good thing’ if it did not serve some of his purposes? That is, is there agenda behind word clearing? Is it to mask that discussion and debating are forbidden?

He says that if during studying you become bored, go back and find a misunderstood word. I would think the opposite is true, nothing is so boring as word clearing when you are forced to do it. It somehow disrupts my thinking process.

(I did not do word clearing Hubbard style, but I spent a lot of time looking through dictionaries because English is not my native language).

Well, anything he came up with is part of the Scn set of ideas which, he felt, should only be purveyed by CofS. And CofS is a cult, one that brought him a TON of money and some power. (though evidently not happiness). So from that standpoint, yeah.

I just think he did and they do use overkill on the word clearing stuff. Anyone who's spent hours working on "word chains" may possibly agree with me.

 

[ClearedSP]

I sooo don’t understand word clearing. Hubbard insists on it so fiercely. Most people agree (in other threads too) that no harm comes from it, that it is good to look things up in a dictionary.

But would Hubbard promote a ’good thing’ if it did not serve some of his purposes? That is, is there agenda behind word clearing? Is it to mask that discussion and debating are forbidden?

There is that -- making you wrong if you disagree with anything -- but I think there's another big factor as well.

While Hubbard made fun of technical jargon in other fields, asserting that the jargon existed mostly to mystify laypeople, very few fields could produce multiple dictionaries full of it like he did. Now why would he do that?

The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis.

How are you going to have your thoughts stopped if you don't know the cliches?