My name is Doug Parent I am an Independent Scientologist

riptide

Patron with Honors
By the way, the Church of Scientology declared my mother as SP, when she was 83 years old, a cancer survivor, with declining health and eyesight.

She had been disconnected from for years from both of her kids, grandkids, and was utterly despondent and considering suicide. I will never forget an MAA at the Tampa Org advising me that this SP declare was the most humane thing that could be done for her, because since her SP declare was made known to her, she would know where to start her process of getting back in good standing next lifetime.

I will add that after this debacle, the direct and indirect result was that at least 8 other LIFE LONG Scientologists decided to leave the church. It also resulted in bad PR, ill will, lost money in the thousands in repayments.

Every single Scientologist in my immediate and extended family has now supported and embraced the reconnection with my family. My sister (who was disconnected from her mother for 8 years) is now helping to take care of her mother.

Disconnection has created more enemies for the church than just about anything I can think of.
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
Welcome Doug :thumbsup: I am curious what websites you frequent :)

Mary, I would GLAD to provide this information next chance I get. But I did start by searching the words "disconnection" "scientology"...

From there it lead to revelations about technical alterations, and detailed accounts by dedicated scientologists who uncovered a hidden agenda by church management to maximize income by perverting the actual writings of the founder and the way the upper bridge was laid out.

Most interesting was the back story on David Mayo and why DM got rid of him.

It's all about the money.
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
Welcome Doug :thumbsup: I am curious what websites you frequent :)

For Scientologists still in, but are trying to reconcile outpoints or make sense from what they see the church or individuals in it reacting to, I highly recommend this one.

http://www.friendsoflrh.org/

There is a generality that is the internet is full of "entheta" This term has become so wide as to include anything that does pass inspection by the thought police. The slogan "THINK FOR YOURSELF" that the Volunteer Ministers use is a very good piece of advice.
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
By the way, Sharon Forscher, the chaplain at Flag, THANK YOU. You are a decent person and I appreciate your help.
 

AnonKat

Crusader
Mary, I would GLAD to provide this information next chance I get. But I did start by searching the words "disconnection" "scientology"...

From there it lead to revelations about technical alterations, and detailed accounts by dedicated scientologists who uncovered a hidden agenda by church management to maximize income by perverting the actual writings of the founder and the way the upper bridge was laid out.

Most interesting was the back story on David Mayo and why DM got rid of him.

It's all about the money.


Those two words sum it up pretty much don't they ;)

Did You alsoo watch David Mayo on Video ? Yes Mayo was actually the one guy that could have brought sanity into the situation.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=16620

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=16703

By the way what is the namne of that ship in your display picture ? Is is a "tall ship" ?
 

Div6

Crusader
Welcome, and VWD!

I look forward to hearing more of your story, as\if you are so inclined.
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
David Mayo is still highly regarded as perhaps one of the most gifted tech terminals in pre-GAT Scientology history. There are many well documented historical accounts that can be verified by highly trained and dedicated Scientologists that David Mayo stood in the way of David Miscavige's plan to restructure the upper bridge for profit motives. There are many reasons and times when DM has gone to great lengths to forward black PR and whispering campaigns against those who would stand up to him.

It stands to reason that if the ACTUAL overall stats for the movement have declined sharply under DM, (see Amy Scobee's comments about the stat graphs at Int that reflect the decline from the 1980's forward) that the buck stops at the top. Per Hubbard, expansion is the responsibility of top management. Per Hubbards policy, church management would have been assigned treason a long time ago.

Since when did "new buildings" and real estate acquisitions count as a major statistic for growth?

David Mayo was attacked with ferocity and was regarded as a major threat, that says it all. "The criminal will accuse others of what he himself is doing"
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
Thanks for the welcome from everyone, I appreciate it. For the record, I have been reading and posting on this board for a few years. Only until yesterday did I do so anonymously. My family connections are safeguarded, I have my money back (no interest mind you) and now I am standing in the light with my identity known so as to make a point.

There comes a time when silence is betrayal.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
David Mayo is still highly regarded as perhaps one of the most gifted tech terminals in pre-GAT Scientology history. There are many well documented historical accounts that can be verified by highly trained and dedicated Scientologists that David Mayo stood in the way of David Miscavige's plan to restructure the upper bridge for profit motives. This is the reason DM has gone to great lengths to forward black PR and whispering campaigns against those who would stand up to him.

It stands to reason that if the ACTUAL overall stats for the movement have declined sharply under DM, (see Amy Scobee's comments about the stat graphs at Int that reflect the decline from the 1980's forward) that the buck stops at the top. Per Hubbard, expansion is the responsibility of top management. Per Hubbards policy, church management would have been assigned treason a long time ago.

Since when did "new buildings" and real estate acquisitions count as a major statistic for growth?

David Mayo was attacked with ferocity and was regarded as a major threat, that says it all. "The criminal will accuse others of what he himself is doing"

Just don't say any of that over in MartyLand :)

Someone might ask who the criminals were who doing the attacking...

Zinj
 

Veda

Sponsor
Welcome.

Interview with David Mayo, 1986: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/mayo.htm

Article by David Mayo, 1991: http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-02.html
_________________________________________________________________
START QUOTE


Clear

By David Mayo, USA.

In late 1978, the state of "dianetic clear" was announced. Within a few months two other "states of clear" were introduced: the state of "natural clear" and the state of "past life clear".

This change had two immediate consequences:

1. The number of people attesting (correctly or falsely) to having attained the "state of clear" increased enormously.
2. During and after that period, there was a considerable amount of upset and confusion about the "state of clear".

There were those who considered that a dianetic clear was not a "real clear" and that the only "real clear" was one who (like them) had done the Clearing Course. Some felt that they had gone clear in their last lifetime. Some felt that dianetic clear explained why they had never been able to run dianetic auditing successfully. A large number of auditors, C/Ses, and others felt that there were a lot of people falsely attesting to the state of clear and either

a. Felt unethical about letting the person attest, or
b. Tried to handle it and ended up involuntarily invalidating the pc. No matter how this was "handled", it has persisted as a problem. So we can at least assume that there are aspects of it that haven't been taken into account and handled.

Let us examine more closely what happened in late 1978 and early 1979. LRH was being audited and concluded that one of the things wrong with his case was that he had been audited on dianetic auditing after he had attained the "state of clear" (which he at first thought had occured in objective processing). He then issued a bulletin forbidding the running of dianetic auditing on clears and made various other technical and administrative changes.

He cancelled the state of "keyed out clear" by stating that it was the same state as "clear". He changed the definition of "clear" (and subsequently changed it several more times). He order ed that the folders of pcs (and the pcs themselves) who might have gone clear in orgs and missions be routed to Advanced Orgs. This action resulted in an emptying out of the orgs and missions and a flood of people arriving at the AOs.

At first, people were being declared clear regardless of what they thought they had gone clear on or when this had occurred. More importantly, they were being declared clear regardless of the state of case or condition they were in. In fact, one bulletin went so far as to advise that case and ethics trouble could be caused by a person having attained clear without having the state acknowledged. As a result, many persons who were declared clear were actually in very poor condition. This practice reflected badly on the "state of clear" and the workability of the tech. It caused a great deal of upset and confusion on the subject of clear.

At that time there was a shortage of instructions on how to handle dianetic clear technically and a general lack of data on the new subject of "dianetic clear". However persons accused of mis-handling dianetic clear were handled with heavy ethics. The "invalidation of clear" was named a Suppressive Act, while permitting someone to attest falsely was also a serious ethics offense.

A step in the procedure for handling these new clears was to establish the date when the person went clear. Sometimes the date so found would be before scientology or even prior to the pc's lifetime. When LRH heard that some persons considered that they had attained the "state of clear" in an earlier practice such as Buddhism, he became very upset. He stated that the idea that a person could go clear through any other means than scientology was "suppressive". At a certain point, he also got upset at the fact that people were concluding that they had gone clear in scientology auditing. So he specified that a person can validly go clear only in dianetic auditing. He handled the "earlier than this life time" clears by deciding that they either went clear in their last lifetime in dianetic auditing (presumably if they were young enough for this to be possible) or had attained a new state he dubbed "natural clear". His new theory was that some people had never been anything but clear. However, he refused, thereafter, to issue any further clarification of what he meant by this assertion.

Throughout this period, the definition of clear and/or dianetic clear kept changing - in the direction of dilution. Thus people came to expect less and less from the "state of clear", while the number of new clears (and thus new arrivals at AOs and Gross Income) steadily increased. None of the new definitions of "clear", and none of the new techniques for handling clears or programming them for further actions, really solved any of the problems caused by the advent of dianetic clear.

It is of interest that the definition of "clear" had already been changed several times between its first definition in DMSMH (The book, Dianetics: Modern Science of Mental Health, 1950, by L. Ron Hubbard) and the time the idea of "clear" was put forth. In DMSMH, a clear was said to be 4.0 on the tone scale, with no aberrations (held down sevens), no psychoses, neuroses, nor psychosomatic illnesses. The clear was said to have eidetic recall and highly enhanced perceptions and creativity. Although this chappie didn't have any OT powers, he was definitely quite a phenomenon!

It is also significant that the attributes of a clear, as described in DMSMH, were never actually attained, although in reading DMSMH, one might be led to believe that they were. When people started attesting to clear, the definition was watered down to the vague generality "at cause over mental MEST as regards the first dynamic". This definition can mean many different things to many different people. Anyone is at least somewhat causative over his own mind. So anyone can find an interpretation of this definition of "clear" that he can attest to. The states of "MEST Clear", "Theta Clear", "Cleared Theta Clear", "Clearing Course Clear", "Clear-OT", and, finally, "Dianetic Clear", and "Word Clear" were equally absolutistic when first stated, but when people started attesting to them, the definition of each, or the criterion for allowing a pc to attest to each, was similarly watered down. This sequence has been repeated over and over throughout the history of scientology.

LRH correctly stated that absolutes are unattainable. And the notion of "clear" is an absolute. It's like the notion of "clean" or "pure". When is water pure? When it has only one part per million of arsenic and rat poop? Nowhere in the universe is there water which is 100% pure. To obtain complete Clarity would require a complete as-isness of any universe the thetan was in and a return to complete native state. Everyone does have a reactive mind - his own reactive mind. That's why one flies ruds and goes E/S and gets off BPC on anyone regardless of their point on the grade chart. The mechanics of the reactive mind continue to exist all the way up.

"Clears" have always had trouble explaining why they still act reactively at times, or a lot of the time, and why they still have problems in life and in getting along with people. The amount of mileage you can get from the notion of a "cleared Cannibal" is very limited. Even a cleared cannibal, if he were really clear, would get along wonderfully in life, never manifest misemotion, and love all his fellow beings, even as he was having their bodies for dinner!

The idea of "harmonics of clear" is quite accurate. The main reason why LRH blew up at the idea of "harmonics of clear", as expressed in the HCOB I wrote, was, as he told me, that this idea tended to leave him open to the charge that the claims he had made in DMSMH and elsewhere concerning the "state of clear" were fraudulent.

The truth appears to be that there are various stages of release, at each one of which you are clear-er than you were. A person experiencing the glee of insanity is clear-er than someone who is just completely unconscious. It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were "clear" at a certain point, and that they therefore had no reactive mind. However this assertion is a lie, and a very destructive one, one that denies case gain to a great many people and provides a too-convenient rabbit button for pc's, auditors and C/S's who are having trouble with the pc's case. The claim that case and ethics problems can be caused by being clear was:

1. Absurd on the face of it.
2. A declaration of open rabbitting season.

Trying to define "clear" is difficult because it is being done over a lie. We either have to restore the meaning of clear to its original absolute meaning (which means that there aren't any clears in existence), or we have to say that what people have attested to as clear is actually only a state of release or reduction.

We can say that the purpose of auditing is to clear aberrations and that if all aberrations were cleared, a "state of clear" would be attained. The concept of "clear" is useful as an ultimate goal, like the goal of perfect happiness or of perfect anything. It is a direction in which to continue to progress. It is not an attainable state (at least given our present level of technology).

Another part of the problem is that the states of release and clear are only subjective. Asking an aberrated person to decide when he feels or thinks that he is no longer aberrated, is asking for a delusory "cognition" from the start. At one time [ca. 1959. Ed.], LRH postulated that the state of clear could be objectively proven by the presence of a "free or floating needle" and a TA position of 2.0 (Female) or 3.0 (Male). But this was an unverified guess that did not stand the test of time.

Perhaps what we have been calling "clear" is "no longer chronically affected by engrams" or "engrams no longer in chronic restimulation." As such, the state would be more accurately described as a state of release or as a state of reduction. In other words, it would mean that the majority of a person's aberrations had gone into abeyance.

Regardless of what the state is named, the recognition that a person can continue to be come clear-er, restores hope and makes progress possible again.


END QUOTE
________________________________________________________________
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
Just don't say any of that over in MartyLand :)

Someone might ask who the criminals were who doing the attacking...

Zinj

Zinj, I was wondering when you were going to jump in.

One of the really gross things I read about long time ago was about Robert Vaughn Youngs and Stacys dog being poisoned or messed with by OSA. Mike Rinder was at the helm when a lot of nastiness went down.

A few days ago I see a video with Mike on Panorama talking about his involvement and why he is now speaking out about it.

I think he is doing something about it and he has my respect for doing so. You won't see me piling on him, or Marty, or any other critic for that matter.

Not my agenda.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Zinj, I was wondering when you were going to jump in.

One of the really gross things I read about long time ago was about Robert Vaughn Youngs and Stacys dog being poisoned or messed with by OSA. Mike Rinder was at the helm when a lot of nastiness went down.

A few days ago I see a video with Mike on Panorama talking about his involvement and why he is now speaking out about it.

I think he is doing something about it and he has my respect for doing so. You won't see me piling on him, or Marty, or any other critic for that matter.

Not my agenda.

I do remember the story about the Young's dog, and also much of the other OSA ops run against them. Vaughn is of course gone now, and Stacy seems to have become a Marty/(Mike) supporter; something I doubt Vaughn would have managed.

I don't remember hearing about that or those stories in the Panorama episidode though. Maybe I just missed it. And, I doubt there were any details given; who planned and executed it; who was in on the scheme; who originated it etc. Maybe I just 'missed' it.

However, people *have* brought up David Mayo on Marty's own blog and Marty has been clear about *defending* the tactics; even the illegal and entirely reprehensible ones, used against Mayo, whom Marty still considers an enemy of Scientology and even one of those who assisted David Miscavige in destroying real Scientology.

My point is that it's a perfect view into the deliberately falsified view of history that Marty hopes to see endure. I don't think it's 'piling on' to point out the deliberate lies, disinformation and 'acceptable truth' that are intended to be sold as 'truth'.

Then again, Marty doesn't claim to be a 'critic', nor does he have any truck with 'them'.

Zinj
 

riptide

Patron with Honors
I don't think it's 'piling on' to point out the deliberate lies, disinformation and 'acceptable truth' that are intended to be sold as 'truth'.

Then again, Marty doesn't claim to be a 'critic', nor does he have any truck with 'them'.

Zinj

Good point. Otherwise I would be rightfully accused of "piling on" the church. My beef concerns specific time form place and event that point to corruption of the subject to the harm and detriment of the many.

I have differing views compared to many, but I owe my gratitude to those who spoke up and provided information that I needed to make my own personal decision. Mike and Marty, Tory, Stacy, Jesse, Vaughn (RIP) Aida, Greg and Debra, David Mayo, and all the Int level staff that blew the whistle years ago and and many others have done that and that's a flow in the general direction that I support.

I've had more than enough pre-programmed pre authorized carefully censored bullshit for the last 30 years, I think it's time Joe Scio had the chance to do his own data evaluation.

Again, no slant. Truth is truth for the individual to decide for himself. Whatever makes this process more available for the benefit of the many is ALL GOOD.
 

Veda

Sponsor
As I recall, by the time David Mayo had been fired by Hubbard (who felt he was siding with the mission holders), all the major changes to the Grade Chart (PP, R6ew, CC/Dianetic Clear, 1978/79) and the OT levels, above 3 (New OT 4,5,6,7, in 1979/1980), were made. According to Mayo, they were made by Hubbard. Hubbard was also behind the 1982 looting of the Missions. Even if the Hubbard-was-in-a-coma,-etc.-after-1980 FZ/Indy-SCN PR line is accepted, you're still stuck with Hubbard butchering the middle of the Grade Chart (1978/1979). How Marty&Mike address these issues, I'm not sure.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
As I recall, by the time David Mayo had been fired by Hubbard (who felt he was siding with the mission holders), all the major changes to the Grade Chart (PP, R6ew, CC/Dianetic Clear, 1978/79) and the OT levels, above 3 (New OT 4,5,6,7, in 1979/1980), were made. According to Mayo, they were made by Hubbard. Hubbard was also behind the 1982 looting of the Missions. Even if the Hubbard-was-in-a-coma,-etc.-after-1980 FZ/Indy-SCN PR line is accepted, you're still stuck with Hubbard butchering the middle of the Grade Chart (1978/1979). How Marty&Mike address these issues, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure it's just an FZ/Indie line. By 82, he was in very rough shape and DM had already taken over. You can check with Larry Brennan on that. It's not that I don't think that Hubbard was not capable of doing something like that, it's just that the facts do not indicate it. DM was taking over and was flexing his muscles.
 
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